Ethical Question...

[Steve Howard]

P.S.

Rich,
one more thing about your tax analogy that might help you understand why such behavior is unethical. Purchasing the information from the tax seminar DOES NOT give you the right or the permission to disseminate that information to anyone else. In most circumstances such as you describe, that information and program will have been copyrighted by the creator/leader of the seminar. Your purchase only gives you the right to employ the information for your own personal use. Your passing it on to another would be a form of copyright infringement and illegal to boot. Example: you go to a seminar and purchase the information package being sold by the seminar instructor. Using that package, you begin giving your own set of seminars. Unless you were sold the package with a license to do this, you will most likely be sued for copyright infringement. You will most likely lose. Just something to think about.

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Yeah man id give it a little more time, but at the same time, i dont see anything wrong with getting some help from a fellow class mate. It would'nt hurt to see if your teacher is cool with it though.

Its not like your trying to learn new stuff behind your teachers back or anything. Your just looking for help on something your teacher has already shared with you.

Patience is important, ill admit when i startd training i wanted to test test test. I thought i should be getting material faster and I was wrong, i got frustrated, and i sucked anyway. That was a long time ago, and i learned the hard way. In my case learning a little patience paid off big time. I feel im lucky that im still involved in the martial arts. Alot of people quit during that phase. Some lucky people never see that phase. Try to do the form really slow at first, maybe that will help. Think about what you are doing and maybe try a mirror.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
The fact that JasOn considered doing this without his instructor's knowledge goes far beyond just being disrespectful. It is dishonest and, yes, therefore, unethical.

Hold up. He didn't know any better and he asked first because he wasn't sure.

Cut Jason some slack.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Oh, I've been around...(No jokes you guys!)

My first love

Gou,

Why would I need to make a joke?



:rofl:

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by GouRonin
Hold up. He didn't know any better and he asked first because he wasn't sure.

Cut Jason some slack.

Gou,
my response was directed more to the poster that couldn't understand why such an action would be unethical than to JasOn himself. I do give him credit for asking the question and seeking an answer; but the fact that he felt he need to ask the question at all should have been the first clue that the action itself would have been unethical. Even if no one else questioned the ethics of his choice--the fact that he himself would question it clearly shows that the action would have been unethical at some level in his mind. I commend him for having enough courage to post such a question and thereby possibly avoid taking the wrong course of action. But again, seeking advice from a black belt (and assistant instructor, apparently) outside of the dojo is not the same thing as practicing with other students, or receiving advice from this black belt while he is IN the dojo, functioning as a member of the staff. As an instructor myself, I would have no problem with any of my students working with one of our other black belts in the studio. However, working with that instructor outside of the studio WITHOUT my knowledge would constitute taking instruction from that instructor behind my back. That is disloyal, disrespectful and dishonest. I don't think that was ever Jason's intent. I only sought to point that out to him so that he would avoid a possible error in judgement. I think you understand what I was trying to say. Apparently, some others didn't and I was simply trying to clarify my position. Jason---I didn't mean it as a personal accusation; please don't take it as such. I wish you continued success in your training.

sincerely,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravenet.com

 

[GouRonin]

Sorry about the way that sounded. I was just trying to point out that he's feeling his way around right now. I totally hear what you're saying and I agree with you.

Sheesh, all this because he wants to learn an art and he's hungry for it eh?
:cheers:

 

[SingingTiger]

Steve,

You've given me a lot to think about, and I thank you for that. I'm always very interested in ethical questions, and the conversations that spring from them. I will think seriously about your comments and comparisons.

Originally posted by Steve Howard
but the fact that he felt he need to ask the question at all should have been the first clue that the action itself would have been unethical. Even if no one else questioned the ethics of his choice--the fact that he himself would question it clearly shows that the action would have been unethical at some level in his mind.

This I would have to disagree with completely. As I said, I'm always interested in ethical questions, at least in part because I always try to be ethical. When a situation comes up where I have several courses of action to choose from, I often ask myself if any of the courses is unethical, and then explore why it would or would not be unethical. As far as I know, the reason for the question is never because I already know the course of action to be unethical at some level, conscious or not. To put it another way, I believe that my questioning of a particular choice is motivated by a sincere desire to be ethical, not by a subconscious knowledge about the inherent ethical or unethical nature of every choice that exists, even before being aware of the choice's existence.

Again, thanks for making me think.

Rich

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
but the fact that he felt he need to ask the question at all should have been the first clue that the action itself would have been unethical.

The fact that he asked only indicates that he wants to make sure he don't do a mistake or hurt anyone by not knowing a certain path of action.

As we say in Spain, "not knowing a law doesn't mean you can break it"

 

[Kenpodoc]

I fail to see why asking a Blackbelt in the school for help would be "unethical." He is already paying tuition and he has acknowleged Mr. Cappi as his instructor.

I believe it is good manners to discuss with the instructor how he would like to handle this question. I'm probably too traditional but I always talk to my instructor about other seminars, etc. that I attend. I think this is Manners and not ethics. Jason demonstrated good manners by asking the question in the first place. I also suspect that Mr. Cappi is secure enough in his knowlege and skills not to be threatened by his own instuctors.

It would, however, be unethical for the Blackbelt to tell Jason that he would privately provide lessons for a fee without Mr. Cappi's permission.

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
The fact that he asked only indicates that he wants to make sure he don't do a mistake or hurt anyone by not knowing a certain path of action.

As we say in Spain, "not knowing a law doesn't mean you can break it"

Kenpomachine,

As we say in America: "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

 

[Steve Howard]

Kenpodoc has also missed the point.

For this other black belt to provide ANY instruction to one of Mr. Cappi's students, whether he charges a fee or not, OUTSIDE of the studio and WITHOUT Mr. Cappi's knowledge would be unethical.

This is an entirely different situation than helping him at the studio, where he may be considered part of the staff and where the activity would be subject to Mr. Cappi's knowledge and direction.

I have no doubt about Mr. Cappi's security. I also imagine that the black belt in question, would probably suggest talking to Mr. Cappi first on his own if a student so approached him.

I also was not questioning JasOn's sincerity, or the fact that he may not have understood the ethics involved in this situation. However, I also don't believe, like some people apparently do, that we make it to adulthood in an ethical vaccum without developing an internal "ethical barometer." However, if this situation existed outside the parameters of his individual "barometer", and I'm willing to believe it did, then he was only correct to ask his question and I was merely offering my advice on the question he had asked.

That being said, however, his question was about a very specific situation: getting together with a black belt instructor OUTSIDE of the studio WITHOUT his instructor's knowledge. This is the specific set of circumstances I was addressing and it is this specific set of circumstance which is indeed unethical. I never said that it would be wrong to ask the black belt for help--INSIDE the dojo or WITH his instructor's knowledge. Please read my posts completely. There was a very specific issue being addressed and most people are missing site of that.

As always,
yours in kenpo,

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[Kenpomachine]

He should ask Cappi only if he feels he's asking for private instruction from this black belt and not just for a joint train. And I feel Jas0n wants some help in his training.

I usually train with lower belts and help them correct some moves, but I try to make sure I don't teach them part of the program, as that is up to the instructor. He's the one who knows when the time has arrive for a certain person to learn new material.

 

[Steve Howard]

Again, Kenpomachine has missed the point.

Address the specific set of circumstances in question, don't change the circumstances or imagine parameters that weren't mentioned in order to support your argument. A yellow belt training OUTSIDE the dojo with a BLACK BELT INSTRUCTOR, WITHOUT his instuctor's knowledge does not constitue "joint training." The ethical dilema is quite clear. I can't open the eyes of those who choose to be blind.

Steve Howard

 

[SingingTiger]

Steve, I certainly appreciate your stand on the situation as it was described, but the more you keep saying that people "missed the point" the more you're sounding holier-than-thou. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they missed your point. That's just my take on it, I don't know whether you care or not.

I also was not questioning JasOn's sincerity, or the fact that he may not have understood the ethics involved in this situation. However, I also don't believe, like some people apparently do, that we make it to adulthood in an ethical vaccum without developing an internal "ethical barometer." However, if this situation existed outside the parameters of his individual "barometer", and I'm willing to believe it did, then he was only correct to ask his question and I was merely offering my advice on the question he had asked.

I'm not sure if that "some people" was directed at me, but I'll respond. I, for one, certainly don't believe that anybody makes it to adulthood in an ethical vacuum. I know that if someone were to ask me whether it's okay to kick a dog just for laughs, I wouldn't have to think about the answer. But the fact that the ethics of some situations are obvious to me doesn't mean that the ethics of every situation are obvious. Personally, I believe that more questions fall outside of that "ethical barometer," as you put it, than inside, and that's why I try to consider my actions before taking them.

Rich

 

[Steve Howard]

Originally posted by SingingTiger
Steve, I certainly appreciate your stand on the situation as it was described, but the more you keep saying that people "missed the point" the more you're sounding holier-than-thou. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they missed your point. That's just my take on it, I don't know whether you care or not.



I'm not sure if that "some people" was directed at me, but I'll respond. I, for one, certainly don't believe that anybody makes it to adulthood in an ethical vacuum. I know that if someone were to ask me whether it's okay to kick a dog just for laughs, I wouldn't have to think about the answer. But the fact that the ethics of some situations are obvious to me doesn't mean that the ethics of every situation are obvious. Personally, I believe that more questions fall outside of that "ethical barometer," as you put it, than inside, and that's why I try to consider my actions before taking them.

Rich

Rich,
While I don't necessarily agree that "more" questions fall outside of a persons "ethical barometer", I readily admit that some (and maybe even many) do. As for those that miss my point--I was not referring to those that disagree with my position. You and I don't see eye to eye, but you are at least able to see my point even if you disagree with it. I was referring to people who were debating my argument while not addressing the context in which the argument was presented. There are many people who keep saying that there's nothing wrong with "asking for help." I've never claimed there was. Just as there is nothing wrong in disagreeing with my position---as long as the person disagreeing with my position is stating that position correctly. If someone thinks I'm wrong, that's perfectly within their right to do so (hell, maybe I even am wrong!). I just ask that they reply to the argument I made--which was very specific--and not to some more generalized (and therefore, misleading) argument which was not part of my statement. As always, thank you for making me think.

sincerely,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

 

[Kenpomachine]

I've sometimes trained with black belts, just for the shake of it, out of the school. I was preparing a championship and need help with developing the techs. WE didn't ask the instructor for permission, but we didn't hide it from him also.

Plus, from your point of view, I, that sometimes assist the instructor in their classes, train with people outside of the gym, should we ask the main instructor everytime we want to train? I'm not a black belt, but I assist the instructors. Does the color of the belt make all the difference here?

From my point of view, there's a difference between training and instructing/being instructed. If having this pov makes you think I missed your point, then ok. And yes, I also think that drawing the line in between is sometimes VERY difficult.

What I'm trying to say is that I can't see an ethical question there as clear as you see it. And that ethics in your case differ from mine, the same way ethics vary from place to place, and in a certain place along with time. Ethics is not something unmovable and constant.

Lucía

 

[Kenpodoc]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
Kenpodoc has also missed the point.


That being said, however, his question was about a very specific situation: getting together with a black belt instructor OUTSIDE of the studio WITHOUT his instructor's knowledge. This is the specific set of circumstances I was addressing and it is this specific set of circumstance which is indeed unethical. I never said that it would be wrong to ask the black belt for help--INSIDE the dojo or WITH his instructor's knowledge. Please read my posts completely. There was a very specific issue being addressed and most people are missing site of that.

As always,
yours in kenpo,

Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com

I don't think I missed the point. I just disagree with you.

I'm a physician. Patients are continually trying different doctors. Sometimes this is good (second opinions are helpful), sometimes it's bad (going to doctors till one fits your preconceptions. Many physicians get angry and feel that patients owe them loyalty and get angry when someone "takes my patient." Patients are neither slaves nor indentured servants. There is no ethical dilema involved in getting another opinion.

Kenpo students have a right to train with anyone they want to. I think its a training mistake to try to change instructors frequently but not an ethical mistake. I still believe that it is good manners to discuss this with Mr. Cappi. I just don't believe it is an ethical problem.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

There is nothing wrong with getting together outside of the Dojo with another student or black belt asst. instructor to work on material you have already learned. This is the same as having study groups for academic material from school. You go to a school to learn, you pay dues to that school. Once you learn something, it's a part of you, that information is not owned by any one individual. As long as your not getting new stuff that the head teacher has not taught you, or as long as your not paying money for the private time, its fine.

Id be suspicious of anyone who tells you otherwise.

We all have the right to our own opinions, i personally like to work with many at the dojo, and away from the dojo. My teacher encourages it, like any good teacher should.

I hold my teachers advice above the advice of my peersin the martial arts, but its still good to get extra help, as long as its ethical. :samurai:

 

[SingingTiger]

Originally posted by Steve Howard
As for those that miss my point--I was not referring to those that disagree with my position. . . I was referring to people who were debating my argument while not addressing the context in which the argument was presented.

Fair enough. It seems I often hear someone say "you missed my point" because they can't imagine anyone actually understanding them and yet disagreeing with them. Thanks for the clarification.

I've thought about this a lot in the past couple of days. As far as my "seminar" analogy goes, in terms of the way you described it -- materials and a program being copyrighted, etc. -- I agree with you. However, that's not what I was thinking when I wrote it, I was thinking more in terms of someone getting up on the stage and saying something like, "you all know that you can deduct charitable contributions; but did you know that you can deduct 14 cents a mile for the mileage that it takes to get to and from any charitable organization that you're donating your time to?" And then coming home and passing that information on to a friend. That particular tidbit isn't copyrighted material, yet it's a benefit gained from attending the seminar, and the people giving the seminar might lose a potential customer because you've passed on the information. It's the first thing I could think of, but you're right, the analogy doesn't really work because it's too simplistic.

Getting back to the question at hand, I think it's good that you're being clear about the fact that you're responding to a specific situation as described. However, I think it's important to remember that there are variables involved in the situation as described that are not clear; plugging different values into those variables might not change the description of the situation, but they might change your -- or anyone else's -- decision about the ethics involved. For example:

1. While I believe that Mr. Cappi owns the school, I'm not sure if he can be called "Jason's instructor," because, as I understand it, Jason is not receiving any private instruction. Regardless, there are certain things that are unknown about the relationship: what was the tone of the conversation when Jason signed on at the school? Was anything said about extracurricular training? In or out of the dojo?
2. What kind of agreement does Mr. Cappi have with his instructors? Is there a contract? Are there rules -- written or unwritten but understood -- about interaction with students?
3. Is there any agreement with black belts who "assist" in group classes, or is it a very informal situation with no contracts or "rules"?

I'm sure there are others. Changing the parameters for those items wouldn't change Jason's brief description of the situation, but may -- or may not -- change your opinion of what's ethical and what's not.

At this point, I don't think there's anything unethical about Jason asking for help from a black belt, whether it's in the dojo our out. It may be unethical for the black belt to agree, depending on what kind of agreement he or she has with Mr. Cappi. But I think the initial question is a matter of respect, not ethics.

I also think that if Jason goes directly to Mr. Cappi or a group class instructor right after a class with a specific question or concern about a specific move or two, they'll probably be happy to assist for a few minutes for free. He'll probably learn a lot in those few minutes, and the ethical dilemma will be absent.

Rich

 

[Steve Howard]

Lucia,
thank you for taking the time to re-read and respond specifically to the points in my previous posts. Yours is an example of a much more productive post. I will try to respond in kind.

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
I've sometimes trained with black belts, just for the shake of it, out of the school. I was preparing a championship and need help with developing the techs. WE didn't ask the instructor for permission, but we didn't hide it from him also.[QUOTE}

The important point here is that you weren't trying to hide the fact from your instructor and you weren't being deceptive.

Plus, from your point of view, I, that sometimes assist the instructor in their classes, train with people outside of the gym, should we ask the main instructor everytime we want to train? I'm not a black belt, but I assist the instructors. Does the color of the belt make all the difference here?

It's not so much the color of the belt, but the descrepancy in their skill and experience levels COMBINED with the type of relationships that have already been established. The relationship between two kyu-ranked students or two dan-ranked students is not the same as the relationship between a kyu-ranked student and a dan-ranked instructor. If this black belt normally assists in the group class, then a student-teacher relationship already exists---even if it isn't at as formal a level as that between the student and the senior or head instructor. This relationship also exists in a certain context due to each of these individuals respective roles at the school. This is where the difference in the ethical aspects of the situation come into play.

From my point of view, there's a difference between training and instructing/being instructed. If having this pov makes you think I missed your point, then ok. And yes, I also think that drawing the line in between is sometimes VERY difficult.

That is exactly my point. Sometimes it is difficult to draw the line. If the student were a brown belt, the situation might not be so clear. Again, it is the descrepancy in their knowledge that creates the situation here. Any "help" that this black belt would give to a student with less than 3 months training would amount to "instructing." At this point, the issue isn't whether or not the black belt would be introducing new material or not---the student doesn't have any "old" material at this point, because he hasn't had time to internalize any of his training.

And please let me be clear on this point: This is only unethical if it occurs outside the studio AND without the instructor's knowledge. If such "help" (instruction) occurs inside the dojo (or outside, so long as the instructor in charge is aware and agreeable), there is no problem, because neither person has stepped outside of their respective roles or disturbed the nature of any of their relationships. I hope that helps clarify my position.

Sincerely,
Steve Howard
www.kenporaw.bravepages.com