Escaping the clinch

[paitingman]

When did I say ignore the rules? I'm saying don't nitpick with your training partners.
As I said, when in a match follow the rules.
But if your classmate gets a little grabby, don't call stop and lecture them on the rule.
Learn to handle people being clingy and perhaps breaking some rules.

Some refs will let your opponent get away with a lot.

@skribs It's like playing in a soccer match and not being able to handle a little rough housing and grabbing from the opposing players...
it's against rules and bad form, but it will happen to you a lot. just part of the game

You will not find an elite training camp or tournament anywhere on the planet where fighters are not grabbing and shoving eachother.

 

[skribs]

When did I say ignore the rules? I'm saying don't nitpick with your training partners.
As I said, when in a match follow the rules.
But if your classmate gets a little grabby, don't call stop and lecture them on the rule.
Learn to handle people being clingy and perhaps breaking some rules.

Some refs will let your opponent get away with a lot.

Because you should be training your partners appropriately. Especially in something that demands respect to the level that martial arts does.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Because you should be training your partners appropriately. Especially in something that demands respect to the level that martial arts does.

If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken.


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[skribs]

If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken.


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The opponent gets a point whenever you commit a penalty. And if you do commit 10, you lose.

I'm not arguing that they don't happen. But to ignore the rules in training is just stupid.

 

[Jaeimseu]

The opponent gets a point whenever you commit a penalty. And if you do commit 10, you lose.

I'm not arguing that they don't happen. But to ignore the rules in training is just stupid.

You seem to be stuck in this black and white world in which you either must ignore the rules or follow them to a fault without acknowledging gray areas that can be and are taken advantage of. Athletes need to experience “rule-bending “ in training because it does happen frequently in competition. Don’t misunderstand, I’m not talking about cheating or fighting unethically. I’m saying not all refs call things the same and these things happen in pretty much every match.


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[paitingman]

@skribs no one is saying ignore the rules I don't know why you can't accept it.

if you depend on the ref to save you from people breaking rules and being sloppy you are going to be really disappointed.
You have to learn how to deal with these things for yourself as well.
You cannot depend on the ref or anyone but yourself.

"The rules are the rules. Refs are supposed to give penalties for rule breaking. Martial Arts demands respect. So I'm never going to figure out and train what to do when people break the rules," is not a winning strategy.

The ones in sparring training who are keeping track of gamjeoms and every violation and then saying stuff to their partners about it are usually not the ones progressing and doing well.

 

[skribs]

@skribs no one is saying ignore the rules I don't know why you can't accept it.

if you depend on the ref to save you from people breaking rules and being sloppy you are going to be really disappointed.
You have to learn how to deal with these things for yourself as well.
You cannot depend on the ref or anyone but yourself.

"The rules are the rules. Refs are supposed to give penalties for rule breaking. Martial Arts demands respect. So I'm never going to figure out and train what to do when people break the rules," is not a winning strategy.

The ones in sparring training who are keeping track of gamjeoms and every violation and then saying stuff to their partners about it are usually not the ones progressing and doing well.

So which rules do you train for and which do you not?

Do you tell your students "just kick them in the groin over and over again, you can do it 9 times before you get disqualified anyway"?
Do you tell your students "just kick your partner in the knee, because half the time they won't call it?"
Do you tell your students "your partner's going to have to know what it's like to get punched in the face, so go ahead and punch them."

There's a difference between telling students how to get away with a grab, or when to grab even though it's against the rules...and telling them "just ignore this rule in practice because they might not even call it."

 

[paitingman]

@skribs I think you have gotten the wrong impression and have some how arrived at the most unreasonable case scenario.

we're still talking specifically about clinching and people grabbing you in the clinch.
How old are you?
Everything I'm saying is in the context of you or I training with our peers. Training in a mature way. In a reasonable way and with care for one another.

Grabbing or hooking and shoving and playing around in the clinch especially (because we are so much more closely interacting and there's just more you can do with all this contact)

I think a little gamesmanship amongst mature, laid back martial artists will give you supreme skills in the clinch. Types of moves and tricks you can laugh off or show one another.
There are perfectly positive, fun ways to break rules and train and prepare yourself for competition with training partners.

Whether or not you choose to break the rules and wrestle around and try and pull tricks when actually competing is totally on the individual and is a statement of their character maybe at least on some level.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you train any MA sport, you will train 2 different sets of technique, the

- legal technique, and
- illegal technique.

Examples of a teacher teaches student how to use illegal technique.

When a student trains this take dow, he will learn 2 different ways.

1. legal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, and take him down.
2. illegal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, strike him with your right knee, and take down.

If you are a student, do you want to learn both ways?

 

[Jaeimseu]

So which rules do you train for and which do you not?

Do you tell your students "just kick them in the groin over and over again, you can do it 9 times before you get disqualified anyway"?
Do you tell your students "just kick your partner in the knee, because half the time they won't call it?"
Do you tell your students "your partner's going to have to know what it's like to get punched in the face, so go ahead and punch them."

There's a difference between telling students how to get away with a grab, or when to grab even though it's against the rules...and telling them "just ignore this rule in practice because they might not even call it."

The point, IMO, is that there is a lot of subjectivity in terms of what constitutes a penalty and what doesn’t when it comes to official calls. I coach American football, and this reminds me of my players complaining about holding. Holding is illegal. Your team can be penalized for it. And it occurs on every play of every game at every level.


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[Danny T]

Is 'all' aspects of your training specific to competing under a specific rule set?
Now how do you deal with someone within who disregards some of the rules. Do you do any training to handle such?
What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?
Just curious.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?

One has to learn 2 different set of MA skills. Techniques that can be used to deal with

- friendly training partners (in sport), and
- unfriendly challengers (in fight).

 

[Danny T]

One has to learn 2 different set of MA skills. Techniques that can be used to deal with

- friendly training partners (in sport), and
- unfriendly challengers (in fight).

Don't really agree on having to learn 2 different skill sets. If you have the skills it is more about knowing what to use and when to use it. In your example having the skill to knee doesn't mean one has to use it. Just as in the OP about clinching. Knowing how to grab in a clinch as well as knowing what to do when grabbed are important skills but that doesn't mean the person has to grab in a competition (knowing when).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't really agree on having to learn 2 different skill sets.

If a teacher just teaches his students the sport with all legal techniques, where will those students be able to learn those illegal techniques?

 

[Danny T]

If a teacher just teaches his students the sport with all legal techniques, where will those students be able to learn those illegal techniques?

In your example
"When a student trains this take down, he will learn 2 different ways.

1. legal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, and take him down.
2. illegal way - press down your opponent's shoulder, strike him with your right knee, and take down."

Are you saying in a good martial art training school whether just for sport the student doesn't learn to knee? Therefore will not know how to knee someone? Or that even if the person knows how to knee they will never learn to knee at a particular time? Unless the instructor specifically teaches them to do so at a particular moment in a fight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Are you saying in a good martial art training school whether just for sport the student doesn't learn to knee?

The knee strike is just one example of many illegal techniques used in sport.

I have a Chinese wrestling book. In that book, the technique "cracking - throw from elbow joint pressure" has been taken out completely. The Chinese government tries to promote Chinese wrestling as pure sport. IMO, many valuable techniques will be lost in the long run. Sport can hurt MA in the long run.

The following "cracking" technique is missing in the Chinese government official Chinese wrestling book.

I have heard this technique has been taken out from Judo training.

 

[Danny T]

I understand your logic.
There are numerous techniques not allowed in sport. The true student of the martial arts will learn and know that because they will research and study. The follower will simply follow. In Chinese Wrestling just as in Judo there is the complete system and there is the sport system. For example in Judo there are the 'atemi waza' (striking) techniques. There are hand striking, elbows, knees, and kicks within Judo. However in competition striking is not allowed but that doesn't mean the person doesn't know how or when to use the atemi waza techniques.

I coach amateur and pro mma fighters. Amateur fighters can't elbow in most mma competitions but that doesn't mean they don't know how or when to elbow in a fight.

 

[skribs]

@skribs I think you have gotten the wrong impression and have some how arrived at the most unreasonable case scenario.

we're still talking specifically about clinching and people grabbing you in the clinch.
How old are you?
Everything I'm saying is in the context of you or I training with our peers. Training in a mature way. In a reasonable way and with care for one another.

Grabbing or hooking and shoving and playing around in the clinch especially (because we are so much more closely interacting and there's just more you can do with all this contact)

I think a little gamesmanship amongst mature, laid back martial artists will give you supreme skills in the clinch. Types of moves and tricks you can laugh off or show one another.
There are perfectly positive, fun ways to break rules and train and prepare yourself for competition with training partners.

Whether or not you choose to break the rules and wrestle around and try and pull tricks when actually competing is totally on the individual and is a statement of their character maybe at least on some level.

Or you can learn the legal ways of doing this, so you don't have to worry about getting a penalty or not.

If you're training gamesmanship, that's one thing. But what was suggested earlier is to just ignore the rule.

Is 'all' aspects of your training specific to competing under a specific rule set?
Now how do you deal with someone within who disregards some of the rules. Do you do any training to handle such?
What about the ability use your skills in a situation where one were having to defend yourself in an actual clinch?
Just curious.

I'm not talking about an actual clinch, though. That would be completely different. This post is specifically focused on the sport side of Taekwondo. It is a completely different clinch than a Muay Thai or Wrestling clinch.

In a real situation, there's a lot of techniques that open up, such as knees and kicks to the groin, grabs or strikes to the groin, or (worst case scenario) biting their neck. I also have sweeps, uppercuts, and plenty else that I could do, none of which is available in TKD. There's also a lot my opponent will be trying to do in a real situation (like take-downs, knee strikes, or choke-holds) which I don't have to defend against on the mat.

I think if I were to try and use the TKD clinch in a real fight, it would be an invitation for a hook punch or elbow strike to the head, neither of which is allowed.

 

[paitingman]

Or you can learn the legal ways of doing this, so you don't have to worry about getting a penalty or not.

If you're training gamesmanship, that's one thing. But what was suggested earlier is to just ignore the rule.

Dude, for the last time. I NEVER said ignore the rule. I clarified what we've been talking about and you still keep pointing to something no one said. But at least we've cleared that up.

I never said learn illegal things and use them either. I'm talking about people training together and learning what to do when people are grabby or pushy and try and use these tactics against you.
I never said, "You should learn how to use these tactics." Read it back.
If you have a way of training that works that's awesome, but you've been real argumentative over nothing after asking for some discussion on clinch training.

 

[dvcochran]

If you’re training for competition, appropriately means preparing for the realities of competition. In a real match, you’re going to get grabbed, pushed, kicked below the belt, etc. Players are allowed up to 10 warnings in a match if I’m not mistaken.


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Unless it has changed, 2 warnings and on the 3rd and any following of the same offense is a point deduction. If flagrant a competitor can be disqualified.