EPAK reunification

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power. I smell the desire to find Dad. I smell the longing for what never was.

Robert,

I think you have something there... Ed Parker was a father figure for many Kenpoists. Just look in the Journey and see for yourself. Many of the people that were featured in this book communicated this kind of feeling about him. Was he a good or bad man? I'm not in a position to make this kind of judgment. But, I will tell you this... He did make a hell of an impact on us didn't he?

I don't think its right or wrong for someone to look up to an instructor, but I do think that it’s damaging to idolize anyone to a point that he or she can do no wrong. The need to feel important sometimes clouds our judgment as human beings. Sheesh, our egos can make us do some pretty stupid things sometimes. I think the martial arts not only develop our strengths as people, but also show us our weaknesses. Now if we could only work past those weaknesses we'd probably get somewhere, eh?

 

[donald]

To any interested,

I thought that the IKKA was reunifying? Has'nt Mrs.Parker Sr., stepped down? Was'nt there some talk about the Association going public? I know that I read that Mr.Trejo, and some of the more senior former leaders were being approached about becoming re-involved. What happened with all that? I am greatly in favor of an umbrella organization for EPAK practioners. I would welcome a strong international organization. One where we can be trained, and recognized under standardized materials,ie.this IS Leaping Crane, or this IS Long 4, etc.,etc.. I feel if you are'nt teaching the techniques, and forms as Mr.Parker laid them out. You should not call your system American Kenpo. I don't mean to say you can't or should'nt put your own personal stamp on what you teach, but a line has to be drawn some where. If you have changed more than 20% of the material you are teaching. Should'nt you resist calling it Parker System American Kenpo? I think with all the fragmenting of the system over the last decade or so. We are in grave danger of losing our history... I am not attempting to deify Mr.Parker, or his ideas. I just think being able to point to a clear history is a nice thing.
Salute in Christ
:asian:

 

[Seig]

Donald,
The IKKA has indeed been approaching seniors such as Mr. Trejo and Mr. Planas. Mrs. Parker didn't "step down", the orgainzation was sold. To an extent you are right, it would be nice to have a unified governing body. I believe the AKSC tried just that. I personally feel the IKKA will fall very short. They may attract some of the seniors back, but certainly not all. Let's use Doc as an example. He teaches his "Sub Level ", and I am willing to wager that he would argue extensively that he does "Parker Kenpo", but there is no way what he does would fit into the frame work of what you suggest. I could say the same thing of Mr. Sullivan, or even Mr. Pick, you get the idea. I don't feel we are in danger of losing our history, we're still creating it. Who is to say exactly how any technique or form is done? Mr. Parker was constantly changing things. So what this means is that Mr. Sullivan's "Leaping Crane" and Mr. Tatum's may be different, yet similiar. For that matter, Mr. Tracy and company were at one time Mr. Parker's Kenpo as well. How would you feel if he were to come in and say, "No, this is how you do 5 swords." There are a lot of strong good organizations out there, I do not believe there can be ONE end all be all organization out there. Here's another example, Mr. Conatser requires to do the opposite side of everything, forms, sets, techs, etc.... That has been an ongoing discussion between him and many seniors. How would you feel if your "organization/system" suddenly started/stopped requiring them. Those that had to start would probable be upset because of the additional work, those that had to stop would be upset because they would feel there work was unrecognized as valuable. This could go on and on. I have seen video of Mr. Parker where he stressed that his techs were "only ideas" of how to do something. There is so much available out there, it would be a shame if it was lost due to unity. As I said before, as long as brother hood between organizations and practitioners exist, we can only continue to grow, and hopefully improve.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I simply don't believe for a minute that the majority of these calls for unity have anything to do with anything other than power-seeking, and money-grubbing.

I continue to be glad that, at this point, I've been taught how to keep training, learning, and teaching in my very own back yard.

 

[Sergio Jódar]

I agree with you, Seig

 

[RCastillo]

While I know little of the situation, logically speaking, too much time has passed, many things have changed to make it work like it did beofre. Besides, you're missing the most important element, SGM Parker himself.:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I agree with mr. Castillo. The time has passed, and you cannot force-feed history. Look what happened in the old Soviet Union.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I simply don't believe for a minute that the majority of these calls for unity have anything to do with anything other than power-seeking, and money-grubbing.

Well, when Parker had the IKKA, that was an org. Do you think that he was pawer seeking and money grubbing???

Mike

 

[Les]

Originally posted by MJS

Well, when Parker had the IKKA, that was an org. Do you think that he was pawer seeking and money grubbing???

Mike

Don't lose sight of the fact that Kenpo and the IKKA weren't a hobby to Mr Parker, they were his business interests.

Les

 

[rmcrobertson]

I've no idea what Mr. Parker was thinking, nor is it terribly relevant.

I do know what I read in most of the calls for "unity," I presently see.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Robert wrote:

Ah, the fantasy that Once Upon A Time things were perfect!

Behind all these demands for, "unity," I smell the will-to-power. I smell the desire to find Dad. I smell the longing for what never was.

I couldn't agree with this more! I have to admit that I agree with just about everything Robert posts except when we are discussing cross-training, groundfighting, or changing the system

You know I started this thread with my tongue in my cheek to poke fun at Kenpoists getting mad at MartialTalk and leaving to join another forum. I was trying to compare our recent episodes with Kirk, Brian, Clyde, etc. to the history of Kenpo...Once again, I am the only one laughing at my joke? :shrug:

We take ourselves so seriously! Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

with all the politics going on right now, you are right

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Les

Don't lose sight of the fact that Kenpo and the IKKA weren't a hobby to Mr Parker, they were his business interests.

Les [/B]

I understand that and I'm not saying that is was a hobby. I was replying to Robs remark about the orgs being power seeking and money hungry. I stated that I dont think thats the case with all the orgs., including the IKKA.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
with all the politics going on right now, you are right

It has nothing to do with "politics."

From the beginning as Parker evolved, he had students who had achieved a certain level in their mind who were not interested in "changing" or "evolving" with Ed Parker. They had attained "status" and/or a level of knowledge they were satisfied with, and decided to move on for a variety of reasons including personal differences.

They established their own businesses, kenpo interpretations, and subsequent lineage.

Ibrao, etc left in the fifties. Perry, German, Al & Jim Tracy etc in the sixties, Kelly, Dimmick, etc in the seventies, Pick, Tatum etc in the eighties. Many came back, many didn't. Many more left after Parker passed

Parker was a student himself who moved in many directions as he gleened information from an abundance of resources. Some stayed in the business area with Parker. Some stayed for rank. Everyone had their own reasons for what they did. Some honorable, some not.

The point is simply there can never be a reunification of an entity that has never been unified. Direct lineage to Parker is no guarantee of anything other than some nebulous relationship. Parker promoted many people for many reasons, and frankly the majority of them over his lifteime were plain awful. I have always said the quality of what is being taught has always been, and will always be placed at the feet of the teacher in front of you.

What was learned, when it was learned, and an individuals own capabilities, and desires in conjunction with Parker's knowledge and willingness to share at the time all determine what someone might have learned and now teaches.

There is no standard EPAK other the the "conceptual" Infinite Insight volumes and manuals he sold for his "business" of kenpo, and the manuals changed about 5 times. What Sullivan learned is different from what Planas learned, that's different from what Trejo learned, that's different from what Hancock learned, and they are all "different" from me.

Therefore an evaluation of the efficacy of what's taught, as well as lineage should begin and end with the person standing in front of you. Who's right? Everybody. Who's wrong? Nobody. Are we unified? Yes, we all do Kenpo. Will we all ever come under one curriculum that everyone can look to for "correctness?" No.

It was never that way and never will be. Move on, it's a moot question.

 

[Michael Billings]

Boy, that was a succinct assessment, and helpful to lots hopefully.

-Michael:asian:

 

[Bill Lear]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

You know I started this thread with my tongue in my cheek to poke fun at Kenpoists getting mad at MartialTalk and leaving to join another forum. I was trying to compare our recent episodes with Kirk, Brian, Clyde, etc. to the history of Kenpo...Once again, I am the only one laughing at my joke? :shrug:

We take ourselves so seriously! Of course EPAK will never be reunited into one organization.

Joke? Not funny. Sad really. Instead of using the internet to further our divides, we should be using it to communicate and share our differences in a constructive manner. Just a thought Old Fat Kenpoka. :shrug:

As for the Whole of Kenpo ever being united under one flag... I agree with Doc. His post was right on the money!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Um...are we talking about unification, or about corporatism? That is, are we discussing the ideas that unify kenpo and how nice it might be if the folks quialified to decide some matters decided them, or are we talking about organizing kenpo as a business?

 

[CoolKempoDude]

Originally posted by Doc


What Sullivan learned is different from what Planas learned, that's different from what Trejo learned, that's different from what Hancock learned, and they are all "different" from me.

since you mentioned about the *different* between you and parker's students, you mean the FIRST DIFFERENT moves or LAST DIFFERENT moves of 1 technique??????

example, let say you all learn Basic technique number 1 ok?

your first 2 moves of this technique is different from other guys ????

if that is the case, you guys all do kenpo BUT do it DIFFERENTLY.

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by CoolKempoDude
since you mentioned about the *different* between you and parker's students,

You've misunderstood. My point is the difference between Parker students

you mean the FIRST DIFFERENT moves or LAST DIFFERENT moves of 1 technique??????
example, let say you all learn Basic technique number 1 ok?
your first 2 moves of this technique is different from other guys ????
if that is the case, you guys all do kenpo BUT do it DIFFERENTLY.

I really don't understand what you're attempting to say. Let me clarify it this way. Some Parker students do techniques differently than others but share the same concepts and philosophy. Philosophically and conceptually in many ways I differ even from them.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by Doc
It has nothing to do with "politics."

From the beginning as Parker evolved, he had students who had achieved a certain level in their mind who were not interested in "changing" or "evolving" with Ed Parker. They had attained "status" and/or a level of knowledge they were satisfied with, and decided to move on for a variety of reasons including personal differences.

The Greatest hinderance to learning is to believe that you already know.
Yeah, you can quote me.

Hey MJS, you said this further upstream here:

By having an umbrella so to speak that you can be under, rather than having 'X' number of smaller groups doing what they want, you can have the same groups all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas.

I see "all doing the same thing, teaching the same way, and all following the same ideas " as a real liability, not an advantage.
Care to differ? (in a nice, friendly way)

Your Brother
John