Not to side track but how long ago did you train with Mr. Galupo? He visits the studio I train at once a year when Mr. Wedlake comes in to do a seminar. Did you ever come to Mt. Vernon with him by chance??Brian Jones said:
EPAK and SL-4
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marlon
Master Black Belt
someone once said do not seek to copy a master seek what the master sought. Perhaps going to the basics and concepts of the oriental atrs that Ed Parker looked to will help to furnish what is missing...and why not in any case. i know that F.Villari did not encourage this b/c he wanted to be the only source, however, by all accounts Ed Parker was not like that. Perhaps, someone teaching you sl4 or what not will only give you thier understanding, if you go to the source you can find your own and grow...after all after a certain amount of training the only good reason to continue is to grow(imo)
Respectfully,
Marlon
Respectfully,
Marlon
Brian Jones
Blue Belt
jfarnsworth said:
I still train with Peter every Monday. I drive down from Fostoria (about 1 hr. and 45. min) to train with him and then I go over to train in Modern Arnis before heading home. I was at the seminar last year with Mr. Wedlake ( we did Blinding Sacrifice, Intercepting the Ram) I was the one with the AKKI patch if you remember back that far. Sorry I didn't get down there a couple of weeks ago. Peter said it was a good seminar.
Brian Jones
I remember seeing someone there with an akki patch on. I didn't really stare but I guess should have introduced myself since there were guests in our studio. Next time I will. And yes, that seminar was really good on body mechanics.
kuroshinja
White Belt
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My name is James Lee. I am trying to contact Peter Galupo. He knows me from a seminar that Andrew King hosted for Dr. Chapel. Please have him contact me. [email protected].
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
I guess this question is more for Mr. Chapel but everyones opinion is always welcome. Would you consider Tracy Kenpo "motion kenpo" ?
Doc
Senior Master
Well yes, and no. The Tracy organization has a huge dichotomy of information that covers the full spectrum of the martial arts, much like Ed Parker. The biggest difference is the Tracy's began their organization from this perspective. Whatever the art needed, Al was not shy about finding the best at it, and than hiring them to teach and infuse their art with the knowledge. But this has created, once again like Parker, a great disparity in geographic schools, and more importantly their instructors. Like most teachers, Al Tracy decided who learned and what they learned. Some "need" some things, and others don't.
So you can find more "motion" based teaching like the Parker Commercial method, to more sophisticated anatomical instruction. Last year I taught a class with Ted Sumner and although we taught differently, we were covering essentially the same material.
Much like the Parker Lineage, you never know what you get until you get with the teacher.
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
You wouldn't happen to have any students that teach in southern Louisiana would you? I haven't found any kenpo schools that interest me here. I work at a prison here and I'm not interested in wasting my time with something that will get me hurt or possibly worse.
Doc
Senior Master
Unfortunately no sir. I would love to have you as a student. On any given night at our home school in Los Angeles, the police, sheriff, and federal agents out number civilian students easily. We have more fire power in the school than most small police departments. My law enforcement material is used all over to rave reviews. My Sheriff's Deputy's assigned to custody love the material. I got to get over in your area and share some things with you.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I don't know Louisiana very well, but Kenpodave, a member here, has a school in Shreveport. You might send him a message.
Dave Teaches Tracy kenpo, and has studied with some of the very senior people within the Tracy group. You might find it worth your while.
I don't know how set you are on SL4, but considering it isn't available in your area, this might be an excellent option.
Doc
Senior Master
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
kenpo_cory
Purple Belt
That wouldn't be Dave Hopper would it? I was just looking at the Tracy's website today and saw him listed. I was considering talking to him actually.
Doc
Senior Master
Sounds good!
marlon
Master Black Belt
I am curious to understand what is sl4's opinion on forms training and what is the % of emphasis on forms in sl-4 and why?
respectfully,
Marlon
respectfully,
Marlon
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Doc
Senior Master
Well Marlon those are interesting questions you pose, however SL-4 doesnt have an opinion.
However because I am the acknowledged expert in the SubLevel Four Lineage of Ed Parkers Work, Ill see if I can shed some light for you.Traditionally the Chinese had two methodologies of teaching and conveying information. They had the quick study warrior versions of their arts, and they had the scholarly preservationist versions as well.
The former was about learning warrior skills as quickly as possible for obvious reasons, for those in the service of the Emperor in his armies. The emphasis was on applications and weapons skills as primary tools of survival and assault. After all the average life span was short in general, and for warriors specifically, even shorter. The so-called scholarly old masters of the movies were few and far between.
It is this aspect in modern times that was deemphasized, because of a lack of need in modern warfare. With the invention of gunpowder, there was a dampening effect on this type of training, and over time it diminished greatly. Thus, the emphasis moved to preserving the scholarly works of study that the Chinese pioneered in the understanding of human anatomy over centuries of experimentation.
This is important because it helps to understand why things were taught the way they were, and why when the arts were exported to other cultures, there was so much misinformation, and misunderstanding of the methodology and the knowledge itself. It also points out why the information is virtually lost in modern times and why the Chinese have always been so protective of their cultural heritage in this area.
What we see in the old movies were those training and being trained to be scholars, through scholarly archived methods. To this end, the Chinese placed a great deal of emphasis on forms and set training, and then extrapolated the information for application out of this training.
It was through this methodology the information could be preserved, and passed from generation to generation. Forms and Sets, in conjunction with flowery metaphoric phrases to describe the action, as well as the physical actions themselves as taught, stood alone as encyclopedias and repositories of the great works of the scholars that came before each generation.
When a new discovery was made, (or an old one disproved), a form or set could be slightly modified to contain and present the new information without much effort, insuring information was always current and up to date. So the primary purpose became preservation over function, with much of the applications becoming vague to following generations of scholars without the constant flow of expendable warriors to keep them on track.
Thus, when they arts began to be exported, other cultures misinterpreted information. Many presumed that every move had a corresponding application, and this was completely erroneous. Many of the moves that appear impractical in combat are simply indices of preserved information that requires a knowledgeable and scholarly interpretation.
With the advent of the modern era of the arts, many moved to a non-traditional method away from the Forms/Sets Encyclopedic Method, in favor of the old warrior method rediscovered. Notably, Kenpo in the William K.S. Chow Lineage began the unique process of empty hand warrior training with all emphasis being placed on experiential applications of extreme physicality.
The forms and sets were de-emphasized over a then unique, hands on, and a pass/fail approach to build knowledge and practical skills. If something worked consistently, it was retained. If it didnt, it was discarded immediately.
This method was revolutionary for its day, with all arts being tradition bound to a particularly culture and ideology preserving methodology first, and practical application information a distant second. Edmund Parker Sr. always gave his first and last Kenpo Teacher credit for this innovative approach that he carried with him, and continued into his own unique and varied methods of development.
When Ed Parker first made the switch to his versions of Chinese Kenpo, he followed the old school method of forms and sets initially, but found this too restrictive for his self-defense approach.
Ultimately in his commercial work, although unintended, the self-defense techniques became the complete focus, and forms gave way to competition emphasis over information and application support.
SubLevel Four Kenpo is a hybrid of the old, and new methods, which are what Mr. Parker, intended to create. He intended to take his experience in the traditional Chinese Arts and in Chinese Kenpo, and infuse his philosophy into an American kenpo. I am in agreement with Mr. Parker, and it is in my view the intended direction that modern self-defense arts should take depending upon ones commitment level. But Parker allowed for varying commitment levels and this is why he created different methods, so students would be allowed to seek the level of their desire, and be rewarded accordingly.
SubLevel Four Kenpo has a higher commitment level than most commercial versions of Parkers works. It requires strict basics and an unforgiving demand for basic skills before newer material can be presented, regardless of time, rank, or supposed experience.
As envisioned by Mr. Parker, the self-defense techniques are the center of the art, supported by the basic skills that the forms and sets provide. Much of the complex information of the old world forms and sets, are presented in their practical application form in the technique, for a more rapid assimilation intellectually coupled with a functional understanding infused, thereby putting the information into immediate context, and providing a mental point of reference and focus. But this also means self-defense techniques are not open to interpretation. They are designed to be ultimately functional with no tailoring or re-arrangement concepts necessary. Also, because they contain such significant information archived in the execution, any changes would destroy the encyclopedic functions.
Forms and sets insure the teaching, and presentation of basic skills. Stance Set 101 for example, not only teaches the basic stances, but how they function in application and transition. Blocking Set 101 teaches all the base blocks as well as how they function in application in conjunction with footwork. Kick Set 101 does the same with base kicks, etc.
SubLevel Four also has a unique bridging component termed Anticipated Offensive/Defensive (A.O.D.) Training. On appearance of some of its drills, it may seem similar to some Filipino Training. Upon application it may appear similar to Jeet Kun Do training. They are neither, but share the practical application themes of the other interpretations, but contain unique information of application. The A.O.D. techniques are quite extensive and teach explosive application modification of default techniques as well.
They are specifically designed to bridge the gap between the self-defense techniques and the forms and sets. They take a base technique, and when infused with A.O.D. learned skills and knowledge raise the level of the application of the techniques. Further, it answers questions of when attacks are known to be imminent, which may preclude the execution of an Attacking Mace default response over an A.O.D. Attacking Mace response, which will occur more expeditiously, aggressive, and more direct in seeking a final conclusion.
So in conclusion, SubLevel Four Kenpo maintains three (3) perspectives; Forms/Sets, A.O.D., and Self-Defense Techniques. All are equally valuable, with all supporting the other, with an obvious emphasis on the self-defense techniques in a Self-Defense System.
marlon
Master Black Belt
Thank you sir, that was clear and precise as well as encyclopedic in nature and function. i appreciate it very much. Just to be sure, do you teach the same forms as are taught in the commercial schools?
respectfully,
Marlon
respectfully,
Marlon
Doc
Senior Master
No. The last of the original forms end at Short Three. Everything after that was specifically created for competition presentation in tournaments, including all of the weapons forms. I do not touch any of those because they cannot be reconciled with good body mechanics in their entirety.
marlon
Master Black Belt
. The so-called scholarly old masters of the movies were few and far between.
and,yet, alive and well in California it seems
Were the A.O.D.'s crerated by Mr.Parker or yourself as a continuation of his work?
and with all due respect sir, how are you perserving this encyclopedia of knowledge that you understadn so wellcalled SL4? I know the time to write things out and the difficulties of video are nearly insurmountable road blocks...so i guess the question really is: Is SL 4 secured and alive for futur generations?
with great respect and a desire to learn
Marlon
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