EPAK and SL-4
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Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
D.Cobb said:
It's on youtube. I'll see if I can find the URL & paste it here, though I'm pretty crappy at the whole tech thing.
D.
IWishToLearn
3rd Black Belt
Doc said:
i don't know if anyone else has posed this question but when you say the commercial system is dependent on the individual knowledge and ability of the head instructor-- how exactly does that differ from other arts like for example-- Shotokan Karate, Okinawan Kempo, TKD and the myriad chinese arts? couldn't you apply the same standard of competency in what is taught to all arts?
Sigung86
2nd Black Belt
Kinda taking the liberty to jump in here with observations on other systems. When I was living in England, back in 74 - 78, there was a poll of some sort taken by a Magazine published in Taiwan, and there were over 2000 assorted styles of Kung fu extent in Taiwan and mainland China ... Up to and including the "Magnificent Battling Butterfly" ... Very clever those "Heathen Chine'e". The Japanese, who inevitibly took their queues and most of their karaté knowledge from the Okinawans, ended up with a myriad of different styles all, more or less, based on the admixture of Okinawan "Té" and Chinese kung fu styles. The interesting things to me, from my various investigations is that the volume of material evident in many of these systems was pretty small.jazkiljok said:
The masters of many of these systems took a minimalist point of view regarding what they actually practiced, and what they taught. For instance, Funakoshi (Shotokan's founder) practiced only 3 or 4 kata, and tons of makiwara and other striking methods. Even Mitose, regardless of whether you believe, disbelieve, idolize, or intensely dislike, only practiced one or two kata, that were, essentially, Okinawan. Not Japanese, Not Chinese, but Okinawan... That is, if his press corp is to be believed.
All of that, simply says, that you are right. You get no more, nor no less out of any system that you endeavour to learn than the instructor is capable of giving you. After that, it becomes what you make it, or don't make it... And it then becomes something else. Much like most of the Kenpo that is out there nowadays.
I believe it is funny/strange, coming from a Tracy's background like I do, to watch what is happening, and sadly, in American Kenpo. No one has "the secret". Even Doctor Chapél, who is one of three people that I would want to study any form of Kenpo under, has, simply put, a path and an evolution. His material takes what he has learned from SGM Parker, and further personal evolution and become SL-4. It isn't for everyone. It is, however, an extremely intelligent path or "Journey". But the point is that for all the years that Tracy's was a commercial franchise system, It has had the same ups and downs.
Go to Ted Sumner's school and you will find, I do believe, that his applications of Tracy Karaté techniques are really different from the techniques taught in Tim Golby's schools in the Midwest. And all are, to a greater or lesser extent different from the Tracy's schools on the East Coast, and even more afield from the JT Will Schools, which started as Tracy based schools, and went on to become an interesting mix of Tracy's and Ed Parker's Kenpo, along with stuff that some of us have never seen before. Howver, it was all, basically, Tracy's Karaté, with the instructor's personal emphasis and insights. :idunno:
What that all gets you, if you could spend your entire life studying all the myriad systems, is all the instructors know. No one has the entire system, OF ANYTHING, not one, each has only her/his interpretation of that system, and that ... IS ALL YOU GET, because, that is all THEY GOT.
Ahem ... We now resume our regular broadcasting. :caffeine:
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Sigung86 said:
I think this is a very very good post, with some excellent points made.
Everyone's understanding is going to be specific to that person, and any students that they have will be a reflection of that, coupled with their own ability to understand the material and willingness to explore and experiment.
Doc
Senior Master
Excellent question sir and the answer is really a simple one. Most tend to think of Kenpo of the Ed Parker Lineage as being one body of work that 'evolved' over the years to whatever it is they are doing. This is actually far from the truth, but close to it as well.jazkiljok said:
Most rational people would have to agree that WHAT a student learned would depend on WHEN they learned. This is a biggie because it also reflects upon WHERE Mr. Parker was in his own study and knowledge. Ed Parker, (even if he wanted to), couldn't teach you something he didn't know himself.
What many have not allowed for is that in the 'evolution of Ed Parker's Kenpo,' there is not ONE time line. 'Linearity' only belongs to the individual teacher. Each teacher represents their own different 'branch' from the source. However, they too also have their own evolutionary differences and generational teacher lineages, with subsequent branches, all stemming from the same source, but also 'tailored' either intentionally or unintentionally by the source for various reasons, including the sources limited knowledge at the time.
By all accounts, Mr. Parker evolved through at least three (3) distinct evolutionary junctions BEFORE he created the 'commercial product.' He came to the mainland with HIS BRANCH of Professor's Chow's "Kenpo Karate." For those who studied with Parker when he first arrived, this was their 'branch' beginning. These students evolved from there, some in varying stages with Ed Parker, others moving on their own. This more simplistic era yielded the first book on "Kenpo-Karate," and its influence can be seen in the works of some of his earliest students and their branches.
Almost immediately, Ed Parker switched to studying a more sophisticated understanding of the martial sciences with Chinese, (and one Samoan) Masters, and entered his "Chinese Kenpo Phase." His study here yielded his second book, "Secrets of Chinese Karate," as he began an in-depth examination and study of "karate's" source and history and formed a new 'branch' in the Parker Lineage Tree.' His students from this branch are clearly 'different' from subsequent branches, not having learned the previous version of "kenpo-Karate."
His third stage, after he was satisfied he had sufficient information to make his next transformation, is most significant to me because it yielded what became Mr. Parker's most sophisticated, and personal art which was NOT commercialized, "American Kenpo." Here Mr. Parker began his own PERSONAL evolution, as opposed to being in many respects, a student previously.
"American Kenpo" was supposed to be, and is Mr. Parker's method of teaching all of the sophisticated aspects of the Chinese Sciences, but without the cultural accoutrements baggage, that slowed the learning process. He wanted to focus on street effectiveness and not foreign cultures and rituals, as all of the Asian Arts promoted at the time. He wanted a purely "American" version that presented the material from an American aspect, with American ideas and expressions instead of 'foreign mystic concepts and language.' Having been a part of the Chinese Kenpo Phase, I welcomed this new American Kenpo, and it is where I personally began to grow and understand my own previous training. Primarily it was labor intensive to teach and required a high level teacher of which there was only one. Ed Parker himself. You couldn't begin to explore American kenpo unless Ed Parker taught it to you himself, and you had to evolve with him over time if he wanted to teach you. However to proliferate the art, he had to create the next phase, which did not require him to be on the mat every night training students.
This next phase is where the confusion is generated. Before this, Mr. Parker was evolving in a direct timeline. The next 'branch,' called once again "Kenpo Karate," was expressly created to proliferate and expand on a different version of Kenpo Karate that would allow students to branch out and form businesses, but more importantly, this is when Parker stopped teaching regularly in any school with minor exceptions.
This fourth branch however did not stop Parker from continuing to evolve his American Kenpo third branch separately. By his own admission, the 'new & improved Kenpo Karate' spawned the business of Kenpo, (with a huge nudge from Al Tracy) while "American Kenpo" reflected the depth of the art and contained evolving information that could not possibly be included in the 'business version' for a myriad of reasons.
"Kenpo Karate" was tuned for success, and created for the American 'fast food franchise' market. It was based on abstract motion, which allowed it to be taught by anyone with a background in any martial art. Something that was important because the bulk of its instructors were recruited and imports from other styles of the art with a chance to make a buck off what they enjoyed doing. This is why Kenpo Karate has no real well defined base or basics, beyond conceptual ideas. You don't tell a 'business partner' black belt from Shotokan how to teach a forward bow, blocks, or kicks. You suggest ideas, and allow him to choose. It is also why I choose to remind you that only a handful of people began studying with Ed Parker as no experience white belts, and made it to black. Most came to Parker with previous experience and most of them as black belts already.
Kenpo Karate didn't really introduce much in the way of 'new' information. Concepts like 'tailoring, rearrangements, insertions, deletions, etc existed all along. What Parker uniquely did to sell kenpo Karate is he took it out of the hands of the experienced instructors who has always done this, and told students at white belt they COULD do it as well. Ed Parker flooded them with information before anyone could get bored and moves on to 'handball' or weight training, and used the belt as a 'reward.' He created a standard for the martial arts that had never existed before. He looked at terms like "McDojo" with pride. Introducing to a culture a method of learning self-defense, that previously had none, and then like McDonald's creating a degree of consistency that carried from school to school was genius.
Everyone agreed it wasn't the best way to learn the arts. That was never an argument. It is what it is. If you wanted a fine meal, you had to seek out the restaurant and chef with years of culinary skill and knowledge. That restaurant and chef may not be available to you. They may be too far away, or the waiting list might make them unavailable. But if you wanted to stop being hungry, get full, and satisfied until your next meal, McDonald's fit the bill. And the secret to success was not the great food (or art), but the consistency from franchise to franchise. No, it wasn't fine dining but you knew what you were getting because the menu was there in front of you, and the value was present because you knew what everything was going to cost, and about how long it was going to take. It presented a conceptual curriculum that could be interpreted by students and teachers alike, and kept everyone moving and happy.
Therefore, you see what makes this branch 'commercial' is it was created by Ed Parker to be commercial. It wasn't an art that someone 'watered down' as some suggest; it was created to be commercially successful in a business environment. There are many who choose to not teach it commercially, but that does not change the nature of the material which is wholly a commercial curriculum based on exploring motion. Kenpo Karate's redeeming quality, as Parker planned, was its teachers. The best will expound on the concepts and teach at a high level. The worse will follow the conceptual limited idea manuals, and expect that will be enough. For many it is, but like McDonald's, it has 'culinary limitations' inherent in the product, no matter how grand or altruistic your intentions. If what someone teaches is based on 'motion,' it is the commercial product. Unfortunately too many of the now teachers were pushed through the ranks with little real practical knowledge, Now they teach.
Me personally, I am still on the Chinese Kenpo to American Kenpo Branch that was NOT based on motion and I am not the only one. Sigung LaBounty always comes to mind because we communicate quite often. You can call 'Motion Kenpo" American Kenpo or EPAK but it is not, according to Mr. Parker. However, in the end it's all semantics, and if it works for you who really cares. The main thing is to NOT assume everyone is or should be doing the same thing and argue about techniques, or 32/24/16, or the order of forms. Let's fight about function. That makes more sense to me.
Below is a MartialTalk post from the archive of 2002. I have no idea whom it is(AMK?), other than they appear to be someone I've come in contact with. If they read and recognize, I'm sure they'll chime in. Thanks.
Doc
Senior Master
Continuing:
The big distinction between the commercial aspect of Kenpo Karate and more traditional arts lie in their intended purpose. Most were designed to teach specific things before there was any commercial aspect to the arts. Some to teach fighting, healing, medicine, etc, and others to teach discipline through sporting activities, and still other 'way' arts designed to foster an inner peace. None of these arts were created specifically to be a money making enterprise, until "kenpo Karate." At some point many arts have sprung up to take advantage of the marketplace, as well as other older more traditional arts began to modify their training to accomodate older men, women, and children. But the difference here is these arts changed to make money, whereas Kenpo Karate was created to make money therefore even if you choose to teach for free, the curriculum is still a commercial product, with all the attendant limitations.
The big distinction between the commercial aspect of Kenpo Karate and more traditional arts lie in their intended purpose. Most were designed to teach specific things before there was any commercial aspect to the arts. Some to teach fighting, healing, medicine, etc, and others to teach discipline through sporting activities, and still other 'way' arts designed to foster an inner peace. None of these arts were created specifically to be a money making enterprise, until "kenpo Karate." At some point many arts have sprung up to take advantage of the marketplace, as well as other older more traditional arts began to modify their training to accomodate older men, women, and children. But the difference here is these arts changed to make money, whereas Kenpo Karate was created to make money therefore even if you choose to teach for free, the curriculum is still a commercial product, with all the attendant limitations.
OP
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Thank you sir!
Those were great posts!
:asian:
Those were great posts!
:asian:
marlon
Master Black Belt
Hello master Chapel,
i am wondering what you would recommend to someone interested in undersrtanding and learning to apply what you teach to do on thier own? Are thier concepts and practices that you could share that would allow someone who does not train in SL-4 or even EPAK to see and grow from this knowldge that you have rfecieved from Ed Parker. Without the infinite insights highly specific terminology could you explain a way for myself to "get it" at least on a level that could help me grow my kempo in that direction?
Thank you
Respectfully,
Marlon
P.S. perhaps i should have started a new thread?
i am wondering what you would recommend to someone interested in undersrtanding and learning to apply what you teach to do on thier own? Are thier concepts and practices that you could share that would allow someone who does not train in SL-4 or even EPAK to see and grow from this knowldge that you have rfecieved from Ed Parker. Without the infinite insights highly specific terminology could you explain a way for myself to "get it" at least on a level that could help me grow my kempo in that direction?
Thank you
Respectfully,
Marlon
P.S. perhaps i should have started a new thread?
Doc
Senior Master
Hello sir. For the record, 'mister' or "doc" is fine, "master" is for others. If you follow any of the theads on forums where I post, one of things I always speak of is how difficult it is to relay information this way.marlon said:
The particular knowledge utilized in the teaching and applications of SubLevel Four Kenpo are my interpretations of what Ed Parker taught me, and what he did in his own applications. Although complex, it is actually easy to learn, if not understand, but only from a qualified instructor. It is labor intensive and intricate requiring personal discipline, and even the most experienced instructor may not even observe and recognize the application mechanisms. It is comprised of multiple sciences that all come together through the conduit of the human body, and the applications found within dynamic human interaction.
Absent standing in front of an instructor, it is impossible sir. This is why Parker created Kenpo Karate. Because he didn't have to be there and students could interpret anything that worked for them. Kenpo Karate is 90% concepts and 10% principles. SubLevel Four Kenpo is the opposite at 90% principles and 10% concepts. Sorry I couldn't help you sir.
marlon
Master Black Belt
Thanks anyway, Doc
Respectfully,
Marlon
Respectfully,
Marlon
Doc said:
Doc said:
First off, thanks for the lengthy and informative reply. Well worth the read for those interested in the topic.
So- what I think Im getting from this is that a money making operation has by necessity a laissez faire curriculum that tolerates significant differences in how one learns basics, teks, forms from school to school even though it has some basic franchise guidelines whereas the MA traditional schools curriculum will focus on specifics that have been handed down generation to generation; i.e. a round house kick or a kata will both look and be taught the same from shotokan school to school but the same couldnt be said for kenpo karate.
It seems that, while the material itself in traditional arts molds the master-to-be into a close copy of previous mastersin the kenpo karate school, the master-to-be molds the material to his/her own abilities, which then becomes a new template of the master and by extension of that- what is taught in class.
yes?
Doc
Senior Master
Very well said sir. It also helps to explain to lack of quality basics, and well as the non existent consistency even within the same school or association between students.jazkiljok said:
At one level, all of my students do the same thing the same way. No variation, just correct within the curriculum. (Kinda like the old chop-sockey flicks where there are a couple of hundred students in the courtyard all moving the same on an exercise in unison.) This is learning the abcs and vocabulary. They can't change the spelling of a word or rearrange a sentence yet, because they don't understand 'sentence structure' yet. This is blasphamy in Kenpo-Karate circles where 'self expression' is more important than proper structure.
Brian Jones
Blue Belt
Great Post Doc.
By the way I wonder if "AMK" might not just be Andrew King from Columbus, Ohio. I knew Andrew when we both trained with Peter Galupo in Columbus. Andrew just passed the bar by the way.
Brian Jones
By the way I wonder if "AMK" might not just be Andrew King from Columbus, Ohio. I knew Andrew when we both trained with Peter Galupo in Columbus. Andrew just passed the bar by the way.
Brian Jones
Doc
Senior Master
You know it could be Andrew, but I don't seem to remember him posting here. I knew he passed the bas, he and I stay in touch. Glad to see you're still around sir.Brian Jones said:
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