Empty Hand VS Weapon

[7starmantis]

We are doing a seminar for a 7* form Empty Hand VS Broadwsord. This brings up a good question. Do you guys think it is worth training empty hand vs weapons, or should you stick to weapons vs weapons? What I'm asking is, in a self defense situation, can you really defend yourself properly empty handed versus a braodsword, spear, maybe a 3 sectional staff?

7sm

 

[markulous]

Yes and No. Yes it is worth it to train against someone with a weapon and you without one. Me and my Sifu have done that on numerous occasions. But no in training against a 3-section staff, broadsword, or spear. I would say train against an escrima stick, baseball bat, or knife. Because no one is going to rob you at the ATM on horseback with a spear in ceramonial armor.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by markulous
Because no one is going to rob you at the ATM on horseback with a spear in ceramonial armor.

I think we are talking about two different types of spears. We don't use horses in our training.

However, some weapons do have an ability to transfer from the actual weapon to something of the same nature. So what about training to use those weapons, do you not subscribe to that either?

7sm

 

[CloudChaser]

i agree that it would be useful to practice empty-handed self defense against weapons of similar nature... don't know what ancient weapon would be comparable to a handgun though, hmm

 

[Touch Of Death]

Of course it worth your time. Chances are if you are ever really attacked they are doing it because they have the advantage.
Sean

 

[markulous]

Yes you are correct some old weapons do transfer over and can be used/defended the same way.

My Sifu and I never train with swords. Knives, bats, sticks, and guns(obviously not loaded ones). Anything else I believe(for me atleast) is a waste of time. Someone COULD come at you with a sword or spear but chances are they are going to come at you with the above.

 

[7starmantis]

I think practicing more than one or two techniques against a gun is a waste of time. The best technique against a gun is to give them your wallet.

The same techniques are used for weapons of a similar shape and weight. A stick and our bamboo flute are almost exactly the same. A bat, a staff, alot of things transfer.

7sm

 

[markulous]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I think practicing more than one or two techniques against a gun is a waste of time. The best technique against a gun is to give them your wallet.


7sm

Again man I totally agree with you. Trying to play hero is going to get you shot and probably the people that are with you shot. We practice a few techniques against guns though because basically my Sifu said, "If you feel your life is in imminant danger you might only have one chance to save yourself." Because if the guy is simply pointing a gun at you and asks for something, whatever it is you give it to him, no questions asked. But if you can sense he is going to shoot you, he already shot someone, or is shooting at you, then that's when you have to act.

My philosophy(and I'm sure most people follow this same one) is you do what you gotta do to make it home alive in one piece. :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

I do think however that practicing the "old" weapons has its advantages, as does practicing defending aginst them. This increases your repitua(sp?) of techniques. Having a large amount of techniques that you can use increases your ability with any weapon. Same with defending against various weapons.

7sm

 

[markulous]

I will bring up what you said to my Sifu when I get back from my vacation. I think he trained briefly with some old weapons so I will see what he says.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by markulous
I will bring up what you said to my Sifu when I get back from my vacation. I think he trained briefly with some old weapons so I will see what he says.

Do you mind if I ask who your Sifu is?

7sm

 

[markulous]

Not at all. He is Sifu Terry Morgan of Open Hand Kung Fu in Lodi, CA. He has trained in a couple different arts, but his Kung Fu teachers name is Kimo. I am not sure of his last name.

Actually I just remembered, he is registered on this board under the user name "open hand".

 

[markulous]

What he said is basically, yes some stuff does transfer over to a stick or a knife or any of the stuff we use today, but might as well just train with the actual stuff that we use today.

 

[7starmantis]

I don't know, I think just training in one or the other limits yourself. If you only train in traditional weapons you limit yourself from newer weaponry, if you train in new weaponry you limit yourself from traditional skills.

Keep in mind that there arent really any "new" weapons with exception to projectile weapons such as guns. There were knifes, sticks, polls, and such just like there are today 2000 years ago.

7sm

 

[markulous]

Well we still use traditional techniques, just with modern concepts. So a "move" that was created 2000 years ago with say a simple stick, we would still incorporate if it still applied to our lifestyle. Because you know, as well as I know, that they didn't make this stuff to just look cool so they could get their a$$'s kicked, they made it so they could deal out the @ss whoopin'.

But a 3 section staff for instance: It is not a weapon that you or anyone fighting against you will have. And it doesn't really compare to something that you would encounter. That's my thought on it anyway.

 

[7starmantis]

But a 3 section staff for instance: It is not a weapon that you or anyone fighting against you will have. And it doesn't really compare to something that you would encounter. That's my thought on it anyway.

Well, my take is that studying something like the three sectional staff will help you develop skills to handle like items. This skill in knowing the "physics" behind the weapon could help you turn an ordinary object that you would look over, into a life saving weapon.

7sm

 

[markulous]

I see what your saying. It's quite possible that you could find something you would normally look over. But I think the chances are quite slim. I would rather train with an escrima stick or work on my footwork or something else that you are more likely to use.

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, thats the good thing about MA its personalized. I do think however if say you and I put in the same amount of work on footwork and escrima and you happen to put time into another say traditional weapon, that give you an edge when it comes to real self defense.

Just my opinion,
7sm

 

[Tony]

In my class we do use weapons for forms and have touched on self defence against a knife and thats about it! I think it opens your mind to so many possibilities when defending yourself against different weapons. But ouw in the street you don't find that many people carrying swords, three sectional chains, or even Nunchakus/rice flails! And also alot of people who carry knives or other such weapons aren't as skilled as Martial Artists at using them! But some will know how to use them to the best of their abilities!
I think one of the most common weapons other than a knife is a baseball bat which assailants may use. But you notice how people hold it, it seems its always with two hands. You have the advantage because both the persons hands are committed on that weapon. You can tell when he is about to swing the bat when he draws his hands over the shoulder.
Its at that point you can push his elbows up and strike him with any blow you want!
This may sound far fetched but I was watching Jet li is Fist of Legend and he defends himself against a samurai sword with his belt using it gracefully like a rope dart! Have you ever used this weapon! Well my instructor is organising some courses on weapons and especially Rope dart which I can't wait!
Something else you are allowed to carry is a Kubutan and if you put that on a vulnerable spot it will hurt! My instructor was showing us how to use it and even improvising with a pen on someone's hand! And that is very painfull!!