Effective Technique

[Dirty Dog]

Nope, two handed grip is harder, two hands are stronger than one, you can compress the trachea with both your thumbs with a two handed grip.

If you're compressing the trachea, you're doing it wrong. Or at least, you're doing it in a way that will take much longer to be effective.
Compression of the carotids will result in loss of consciousness much much sooner than compression of the trachea.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If you're compressing the trachea, you're doing it wrong. Or at least, you're doing it in a way that will take much longer to be effective.
Compression of the carotids will result in loss of consciousness much much sooner than compression of the trachea.

Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.

I suppose it could be. Personally, my goal is always, 100% of the time, to end the threat as quickly as possible. If I believe that pain compliance will do it, there are better ways to do that. Ways that won't lead to accidental death. Like, say, if I squeeze too hard and fracture the larynx, or collapse the cartilage rings in the trachea.
I'm doubtful that I would ever have "[m]aking someone suffer" as a goal, since the implication there is one of inflicting needless pain or harm.

 

[Xue Sheng]

my eyes did not pop out of my skull driving me into a screaming ball of fight finishing agony.

there is kind of a misconception about that.

You have a misconception as to what an eye gouge actually is (or can be) and I am basing that on your original post where you claimed to have had a few done to you and your above description..... bottom-line, I doubt you every had one preformed on you....

 

[RTKDCMB]

I'm doubtful that I would ever have "[m]aking someone suffer" as a goal, since the implication there is one of inflicting needless pain or harm.

Neither would I but my attacker might. I would more likely use it as a defense where I deflect a throat grab, grab there just to do a knee strike to the groin or solar plexus.

 

[Steve]

Having been choked a lot, I will say that a carotid choke is more effective at putting me to sleep, but the air choke (such as is often the case with a guillotine, thumb choke or the like) is panic inducing. A carotid choke is almost comfortable, if that makes sense. The air choke is painful and can cause physical damage to your throat.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Having been choked a lot, I will say that a carotid choke is more effective at putting me to sleep, but the air choke (such as is often the case with a guillotine, thumb choke or the like) is panic inducing. A carotid choke is almost comfortable, if that makes sense. The air choke is painful and can cause physical damage to your throat.

Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".

 

[Steve]

Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".

I think it's just the opposite. An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible. Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out. It's stupid, but it happens.

It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense. But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster. I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked. They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night.

One other thing to consider is that a blood choke has to be applied correctly to work, and against a person who doesn't want you to do it, that can be tricky. An air choke doesn't even have to work. Just the threat, along with the pressure on the adam's apple, is enough to get people to give up. It's a mental thing thing AND a physical thing.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I am an expert. I don't go around choking people. What I am saying is that what drop bear suggests seems reasonable to me, based upon my own experience with both kinds of chokes.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think it's just the opposite. An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible. Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out. It's stupid, but it happens.

I don't disagree. If I were to compete in this sort of event, I'd be much more likely to use a blood choke. But that's my mindset - end it quickly.

It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense. But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster. I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked. They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night.

Or, conversely, the feeling of air starvation can trigger a large adrenalin dump and your opponent becomes more difficult to control. Especially for the length of time it takes to put them out. While I'm not about to say it's universal, I will say that in my experience (I avoid air chokes, but I've seen plenty applied) this is the more likely scenario.

One other thing to consider is that a blood choke has to be applied correctly to work, and against a person who doesn't want you to do it, that can be tricky. An air choke doesn't even have to work. Just the threat, along with the pressure on the adam's apple, is enough to get people to give up. It's a mental thing thing AND a physical thing.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I am an expert. I don't go around choking people. What I am saying is that what drop bear suggests seems reasonable to me, based upon my own experience with both kinds of chokes.

I think the difference here is setting. You're accustomed to, and thinking about, a competitive setting. I'm accustomed to, and thinking about, a violent person in a non-competitive setting.

 

[Aiki Lee]

drop bear,

I am having a hard time actually picturing the choke you are talking it about. If it is the choke I think you are talking about and that I think the other's believe you to be talking about then it really is the most basic and primitive form of attack. It is extremely simple to get out of. If someone panics because of a lack of training or experience then that is an issue with that individual; it does not mean that it does not have a simple solution.

Also if you're choking people as you have stated then you are opening yourself up to some serious lawsuits or criminal charges.

Regarding the "eye gouge", if you can still see out of it then you were poked in the eye, you did not have it gouged. Gouging implies permanent damage to the tissue.

 

[Steve]

[QUOTE="Dirty Dog, post: 1681115, member: 20725]
I think the difference here is setting. You're accustomed to, and thinking about, a competitive setting. I'm accustomed to, and thinking about, a violent person in a non-competitive setting.[/QUOTE]I agree completely. Which gets back to the point that you have practical experience. Others here also have practical experience. It's helpful to differentiate this from theoretical expertise.

Someone works as a bouncer, that person, in that context, has a lot of experience. A cop can also have a lot of experience, but in a slightly different context. Working in the ER, your experience is just as valid, but in a different context. I think that the discussions based upon experience can be very interesting and informative.

But, if you have no actual experience, that's important to recognize, as well. Often, people who are inexperienced don't know what they don't know. It's unconscious incompetence. In order to learn, you have to first recognize that you have a lot to learn (conscious incompetence).

 

[drop bear]

You have a misconception as to what an eye gouge actually is (or can be) and I am basing that on your original post where you claimed to have had a few done to you and your above description..... bottom-line, I doubt you every had one preformed on you....

did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?

 

[Transk53]

Compressing the trachea, and/or the Adam's apple would be very uncomfortable. Making someone suffer might be the goal of an attacker instead of making someone unconscious.

Yeah, get wrong though, banged up for life, or six months on good behaviour!

 

[drop bear]

I think it's just the opposite. An air choke has a much greater chance of causing injury and would be somewhat irresponsible. Also, in a competition, guys are often entering with a combative attitude in which they have mentally prepared themselves not to tap out. It's stupid, but it happens.

It just seems reasonable to me that, intellectually, it would seem that a carotid choke would be more sensible for self defense. But practically, if your goal is to end an altercation, an air choke would likely deflate any resistance faster. I've put new guys to sleep before, because they just had no idea they were being choked. They were so comfortable, could still breath and just went night night.

One other thing to consider is that a blood choke has to be applied correctly to work, and against a person who doesn't want you to do it, that can be tricky. An air choke doesn't even have to work. Just the threat, along with the pressure on the adam's apple, is enough to get people to give up. It's a mental thing thing AND a physical thing.

Just to be clear, I am not saying that I am an expert. I don't go around choking people. What I am saying is that what drop bear suggests seems reasonable to me, based upon my own experience with both kinds of chokes.

Competition wise. I always wen blood choke. This was consistent in a lot of styles I did. Including reality based ones. And i have choked guys out on the job.

Anyway the reason we all started mma here is because we had a fresh of the boat btt brown belt come down for an extended holiday and start teaching us.

he teached across the throat. And i pulled him up on it at the time because i thought it was a hack choke. But it gets a quicker tap.

now everybody has a personal preference.(which seems to be lost in this thread replaced with my way or the high way) but that choke is done by reputable guys.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, get wrong though, banged up for life, or six months on good behaviour!

as opposed to the throat punching that we started with?

 

[Transk53]

did the person who taught you the effects of the eye gouge have any personal experience with it?

That actually makes me quite queasy. Dunno, but if someone tried to, or actually did, reckon I would pretty much want to kill them for the audacity. Reckon I would take the lunacy defense lol.

 

[drop bear]

Which would be why an air choke makes perfect sense in a competitive environment, where the goal is to get your opponent to tap out. It's less sensible in a self defense environment, where it's better to replace "tap" with "pass".

yes . And i almost always went with the blood choke. I don't even do that any more cos of legals.

But like anything it depends what you want to do. Say someone was going in hard with the eye gouge and you come up behind and want him off quick.

 

[Transk53]

as opposed to the throat punching that we started with?

Throat punch someone on the sweet spot, yeah you're pretty much shoving a biro into the throat.

 

[Transk53]

yes . And i almost always went with the blood choke. I don't even do that any more cos of legals.

But like anything it depends what you want to do. Say someone was going in hard with the eye gouge and you come up behind and want him off quick.

Still pretty much lost on what a blood choke is?

 

[drop bear]

That actually makes me quite queasy. Dunno, but if someone tried to, or actually did, reckon I would pretty much want to kill them for the audacity. Reckon I would take the lunacy defense lol.

biting riles me up worse because you don't need to lock the body in place to make it work.

mostly the eye gouge is a hail Mary move.