Eddie Chong's Sil Lim Tao

[Marnetmar]

I'm confused as to what you guys mean by abstract. Abstract as in more of of a "principles of movement that have multiple applications in different scenarios" rather than a simple "this is a block, this is a punch, etc that only works if opponent, by some divine luck, does X" approach?

Because in that case I don't really see why you would not teach WC forms in an abstract manner.

 

[KPM]

I hear ya, but was hoping lfj might care to offer an example for discussion sake.
For example, I'm sure wsl has a punch in his forms...what is lfj's take on the abstract-ness of a punch?

Just ask him what he thinks about "applications"! ;-) Just kiddin ya LFJ!

 

[Argus]

I'm confused as to what you guys mean by abstract. Abstract as in more of of a "principles of movement that have multiple applications in different scenarios" rather than a simple "this is a block, this is a punch, etc that only works if opponent, by some divine luck, does X" approach?

Because in that case I don't really see why you would not teach WC forms in an abstract manner.

Exactly my point...

 

[Vajramusti]

I did not use the term "abstract" as a label for movements in forms. Even though I have seen many of LFJ's posts, I really don't know him
and I don't recall seeing his name, name of his sifu and a sense of the depth and duration of his training though he has assertively argued a lot elsewhere. Abstract was his term.

As someone (kwan sao?) suggested there is nothing "abstract" about the basic wing chun punch in the sil lim tao. It is the fundamental punch for
DEVELOPMENT purposes. All other types of wing chun punches are derived from the mother punches and varies in their paths to targets and the
distance to be travelled. The motions in the forms provide the foundations from which multiple motions and "APPLICATIONS" are derived. Thus there is wing chun uppercut suggested by the chum kiu section after the bong/followed by the two handed rolling motion- turns into a punch.
Nothing abstract in any of this. Conceptual- yes. Abstract-no-me thinks.

 

[Marnetmar]

Ah okay, so we're on the same page after all; it's just that what I define as abstract is what you define as conceptual, and what you define as abstract is what I define as avant-garde!

 

[LFJ]

Saying such and such is a principle of movement and has several applications is still dealing in 1:1 applications, just several instead of one. Abstract is merely an idea, not a physical existence taken literally into fighting. WSL's forms are abstract.

You will see footage of WSL teaching more mainstream ideas to give people a basic picture. It's very difficult to teach in a couple hours to people of various backgrounds things which need to be trained and reinforced over a long period of time. For that same reason, some of his now internationally "famous" students also only received this kind of thinking, because they were seminar attendees and/or irregular visitors to his school. He taught them simple ideas to take back in their practice. They also came with previous knowledge and didn't have the time to rebuild their understanding of the system properly.

In the DVDs previously mentioned it's all application-based and is not the correct thinking. In that DVD on SNT, three alternative interpretations are given for the last three actions before the final punches, all literal, sometimes ambiguous and make very little sense as an explanation of the action, and not a single one of them touch upon the abstract. The action really has to do with the elbows, man-sau and wu-sau, and x-ing lines.

WSL was once teaching a seminar showing these kinds of application ideas at another famous master's school. His seminar assistant said this is not what you teach me. WSL said he couldn't embarrass his friend, but later came back and told the assistant that he could teach it. The assistant began sharing the abstract thinking with the students, and the next day a group of them came and asked WSL and him to teach them.

 

[LFJ]

Another example of the abstract would be the whole taan, wu, fuk section. Both taan-sau and fuk-sau are only training tools used to develop the punch, rather than literal shapes taken into fighting. Beyond chi-sau training they become redundant, and wu-sau in SNT is only on the center and retracting in order to train another fuk-sau. Other lineages will use these shapes for various application purposes in fighting, and while WSL has shown similar ideas on video, these are not the primary functions. One can't understand the system by watching a few application ideas on video.

 

[Kwan Sau]

As someone (kwan sao?) suggested there is nothing "abstract" about the basic wing chun punch in the sil lim tao. It is the fundamental punch for DEVELOPMENT purposes. All other types of wing chun punches are derived from the mother punches and varies in their paths to targets and the distance to be travelled. The motions in the forms provide the foundations from which multiple motions and "APPLICATIONS" are derived.

Well said Vajramusti!

 

[KPM]

Another example of the abstract would be the whole taan, wu, fuk section. Both taan-sau and fuk-sau are only training tools used to develop the punch, rather than literal shapes taken into fighting. .

I've always followed and understood your input up to a certain point LFJ. But its around here that things just get weird. Because it sounds like you are saying a Tan Sau or Wu Sau would never show up or be used in a real encounter, which just seems odd.

 

[LFJ]

I've always followed and understood your input up to a certain point LFJ. But its around here that things just get weird. Because it sounds like you are saying a Tan Sau or Wu Sau would never show up or be used in a real encounter, which just seems odd.

Taan-sau no, because it's just a training tool. In reality, its concept is used as a punch which mindlessly clears the line for the next attack as it strikes. Wu-sau is important in fighting as the next hitting position, but not as it appears in SNT. The idea is to be able to sustain continued attacking while mindlessly clearing obstructions, so one doesn't have to think where to go with what hand, causing hesitation and inevitable danger.

 

[Punchy]

Taan-sau no, because it's just a training tool. In reality, its concept is used as a punch which mindlessly clears the line for the next attack as it strikes. Wu-sau is important in fighting as the next hitting position, but not as it appears in SNT. The idea is to be able to sustain continued attacking while mindlessly clearing obstructions, so one doesn't have to think where to go with what hand, causing hesitation and inevitable danger.

This is the way I was taught. Tan, bong, wu etc. do not really exist as entities. They are momentary disruptions/deformations of an attack.
We train these structures in our forms not for application but to teach our limbs muscle memory and to teach us to relax in these positions so that they are allowed to form as various forces are placed on the arms. In the forms, these structures are performed with an open hand to promote relaxation. In application, they can just as easily, in fact, possibly are most likely to be fists.
Other parts of the forms are there to develop other aspects: fook sau to develop elbow force, huen sau to develop flexibility and strength in the wrist to reinforce our punches, and so on.

 

[LFJ]

This is the way I was taught. Tan, bong, wu etc. do not really exist as entities. They are momentary disruptions/deformations of an attack.

In WSLVT, bong-sau and wu-sau are used in fighting. They are just not functional the way they are performed in SNT.

Bong-sau doesn't require contact to be done as a response to force placed on the arm to stick and redirect while shifting, as in other lineages. If our attacking arm is covered from above, even without contact, bong-sau can be used like a paak-sau with the elbow to displace the opponent's limb and clear the line for the wu-sau hand to hit. This way the opponent is turned while we remain facing, rather than shifting and turning ourselves. We only shift to face our target.

This ability is what is first developed in daan-chi-sau training, rather than sticking, feeling, and redirecting energy, since at real speed there will be no time for such things. The way some lineages perform bong-sau though makes this impossible as it is done more passively. They then often have to shift and laap the arm out of the way before they can hit again. Too slow and indirect.

 

[Punchy]

Bong-sau doesn't require contact to be done as a response to force placed on the arm to stick and redirect while shifting, as in other lineages. If our attacking arm is covered from above, even without contact, bong-sau can be used like a paak-sau with the elbow to displace the opponent's limb and clear the line for the wu-sau hand to hit.

This is what we refer to as biu bong. While we do use bong sau as I described above, it is also used as a way to clear the opponent off the center.

 

[Punchy]

The way some lineages perform bong-sau though makes this impossible as it is done more passively. They then often have to shift and laap the arm out of the way before they can hit again. Too slow and indirect.

We understand the "wing arm " portion of bong sau to be half of the movement. When the arm is pressed it bends to form what is commonly thought of as bong sau. But the complete motion is the springing out into a fak sau as the arm is released.

Think of a tree branch being pushed out of the way and then released...this is bong sau.

 

[Argus]

Saying such and such is a principle of movement and has several applications is still dealing in 1:1 applications, just several instead of one. Abstract is merely an idea, not a physical existence taken literally into fighting. WSL's forms are abstract.

You will see footage of WSL teaching more mainstream ideas to give people a basic picture. It's very difficult to teach in a couple hours to people of various backgrounds things which need to be trained and reinforced over a long period of time. For that same reason, some of his now internationally "famous" students also only received this kind of thinking, because they were seminar attendees and/or irregular visitors to his school. He taught them simple ideas to take back in their practice. They also came with previous knowledge and didn't have the time to rebuild their understanding of the system properly.

In the DVDs previously mentioned it's all application-based and is not the correct thinking. In that DVD on SNT, three alternative interpretations are given for the last three actions before the final punches, all literal, sometimes ambiguous and make very little sense as an explanation of the action, and not a single one of them touch upon the abstract. The action really has to do with the elbows, man-sau and wu-sau, and x-ing lines.

WSL was once teaching a seminar showing these kinds of application ideas at another famous master's school. His seminar assistant said this is not what you teach me. WSL said he couldn't embarrass his friend, but later came back and told the assistant that he could teach it. The assistant began sharing the abstract thinking with the students, and the next day a group of them came and asked WSL and him to teach them.

I get really skeptical when someone starts talking about secret knowledge only passed down to a few students.

That skepticism turns into down right disbelief when applied to someone like WSL, who was famously straight forward and forthcoming with his knowledge, and disdained that sort of thing.

4:10
[video=youtube_share;1r5eISF-hwY]http://youtu.be/1r5eISF-hwY?t=4m11s[/video]
4:00

Now, I guess you can claim that David and others didn't learn the real deal, and that someone else has the "secrets," but if that's the kind of claims your instructor is making, I'd be skeptical of his claims before anyone else's.

 

[LFJ]

This is what we refer to as biu bong. While we do use bong sau as I described above, it is also used as a way to clear the opponent off the center.

Is there any place your biu-bong can be seen online? I looked but couldn't find any video. I think it's a far more realistic expression of bong-sau.

 

[KPM]

Bong-sau doesn't require contact to be done as a response to force placed on the arm to stick and redirect while shifting, as in other lineages. If our attacking arm is covered from above, even without contact, bong-sau can be used like a paak-sau with the elbow to displace the opponent's limb and clear the line for the wu-sau hand to hit. This way the opponent is turned while we remain facing, rather than shifting and turning ourselves..

In Pin Sun we have a "Got Bong" or "cutting Bong" that can be used in this way. For you guys that actually watched my video series, this is also very similar in idea to the old school boxing "elbow roll."

 

[KPM]

Now, I guess you can claim that David and others didn't learn the real deal, and that someone else has the "secrets,"

Several in the PB lineage have said exactly this! But I don't recall LFJ ever saying this.

 

[Punchy]

Is there any place your biu-bong can be seen online? I looked but couldn't find any video. I think it's a far more realistic expression of bong-sau.

Nothing that I'm aware of...I don't watch a lot of youtube. The biu bong is found in Chum Kiu after the first kick where you are stepping with bong-wu. It is also found throughout the wooden dummy form.

 

[LFJ]

I get really skeptical when someone starts talking about secret knowledge only passed down to a few students.

That was not the claim at all. Nothing secret about it. Simply that it's something that needs to be developed and reinforced over a long period of time through specific training methods, and WSL had many visiting students who simply didn't have the time with him to rework their entire understanding of the system. Simple as that.

All of his regular longterm students share this similar thinking. Seminar attendees and irregular visitors are different. They have fast track application ideas. Nothing against DP, he comes off kind and humble and a fine instructor, but he's always saying "my sifu, my sifu" but then he's all application-based. I have not seen him teaching or demonstrating the primary ideas other longterm students share. There is so much missing from his explanation on the forms.