The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
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Dubai police use enhanced interrogation on NYer.
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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The rules for who gets waterboarded:
http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf
Such waterboarding may only be used if (1) the CIA has credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent, (2) there are substantial and credible indicators the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or delay this attack, and (3) other interrogation methods have failed or are unlikely to yield actionable intelligence in time to prevent the attack. As a result, this technique was used on only three terrorist detainees during the Bush Administration, as discussed above. Despite uninformed public statements to the contrary with no basis or foundation, this technique has a long history of being very effective in obtaining the sought after information. It was in the three cases it was used during the Bush Administration, stopping actual planned terrorist attacks that would have killed thousands of innocent Americans, and yielding reams of additional information, as discussed further below.
http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf
Such waterboarding may only be used if (1) the CIA has credible intelligence that a terrorist attack is imminent, (2) there are substantial and credible indicators the subject has actionable intelligence that can prevent, disrupt or delay this attack, and (3) other interrogation methods have failed or are unlikely to yield actionable intelligence in time to prevent the attack. As a result, this technique was used on only three terrorist detainees during the Bush Administration, as discussed above. Despite uninformed public statements to the contrary with no basis or foundation, this technique has a long history of being very effective in obtaining the sought after information. It was in the three cases it was used during the Bush Administration, stopping actual planned terrorist attacks that would have killed thousands of innocent Americans, and yielding reams of additional information, as discussed further below.
From the memo above:
http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf
Results of the Enhanced Interrogation Program
The CIA has stated in writing that it believes that the intelligence acquired through such enhanced interrogations “has been a key reason why al-Qai’da has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”13 In particular, before their enhanced interrogations, KSM and Zubaydah had “expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.”14 But after enhanced interrogation with waterboarding “KSM and Abu Zubaydah have been pivotal sources because of their ability and willingness to
http://theacru.org/pdfs/TheInterrogationMemos.pdf
Results of the Enhanced Interrogation Program
The CIA has stated in writing that it believes that the intelligence acquired through such enhanced interrogations “has been a key reason why al-Qai’da has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.”13 In particular, before their enhanced interrogations, KSM and Zubaydah had “expressed their belief that the general US population was ‘weak,’ lacked resilience, and would be unable to ‘do what was necessary’ to prevent the terrorists from succeeding in their goals.”14 But after enhanced interrogation with waterboarding “KSM and Abu Zubaydah have been pivotal sources because of their ability and willingness to
also:
The U.S. government has applied waterboarding to thousands of American military personal during SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) training over many years. Yet, there has not been one case of serious physical harm or prolonged mental harm.
The U.S. government has applied waterboarding to thousands of American military personal during SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) training over many years. Yet, there has not been one case of serious physical harm or prolonged mental harm.
International law and waterboarding:
UN Convention Against Torture
The United States is a party to an international treaty entitled The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (hereafter UN Convention). The federal torture statute discussed above, and various other federal and state criminal laws not applicable here, satisfy obligations under the treaty in regard to torture. The Senate, in ratifying the treaty, adopted a reservation to Article 16, which is the provision that prohibits other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The reservation provides, [T]he United States considers itself bound by the obligation...only insofar as the term cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. This reservation limits the obligations of Article 16 of the treaty upon the United States under international law.
The treaty, therefore, does not prohibit the United States from imposing other treatment or punishment, besides torture, not already prohibited by the Constitution.
UN Convention Against Torture
The United States is a party to an international treaty entitled The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (hereafter UN Convention). The federal torture statute discussed above, and various other federal and state criminal laws not applicable here, satisfy obligations under the treaty in regard to torture. The Senate, in ratifying the treaty, adopted a reservation to Article 16, which is the provision that prohibits other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. The reservation provides, [T]he United States considers itself bound by the obligation...only insofar as the term cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. This reservation limits the obligations of Article 16 of the treaty upon the United States under international law.
The treaty, therefore, does not prohibit the United States from imposing other treatment or punishment, besides torture, not already prohibited by the Constitution.
From the memo:
21 Id.
The enhanced interrogations of Zubaydah led to the capture of KSM in the first place. As
Hayden and Mukasey explain, Zubaydah
disclos[ed] information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the
planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which when combined with
what was learned from Abu Zubaydah helped lead to the capture of KSM and other
senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the
U.S.
Hayden and Mukasey explain, Zubaydah
disclos[ed] information that led to the capture of Ramzi bin al Shibh, another of the
planners of Sept. 11, who in turn disclosed information which when combined with
what was learned from Abu Zubaydah helped lead to the capture of KSM and other
senior terrorists, and the disruption of follow-on plots aimed at both Europe and the
U.S.
22
Zubaydah also provided detailed information regarding Al Qaedas organizational
structure, key operatives, and modus operandi, and identified KSM as the mastermind behind
the 9/11 attacks.
structure, key operatives, and modus operandi, and identified KSM as the mastermind behind
the 9/11 attacks.
23 Zubaydah also provided significant information on two operatives,
[including] Jose Padilla who planned to build and detonate a dirty bomb in the Washington, DC
area.24 Both KSM and Zubaydah also provided important information about al-Zarqawi and his
terrorist network in Iraq killing U.S. troops. Zarqawi was subsequently killed in a U.S. air raid in
June, 2006.
Finally, Hayden and Mukasey write, As late as 2006, fully half of the governments
knowledge about the structure and activities of Al Qaeda came from those interrogations.25 In
another article, former Bush Administration official Peter Wehner quotes George Tenet, CIA
Director under both Clinton and Bush, as saying, I know this [enhanced interrogation] program
has saved lives. I know weve disrupted plots. I know this program alone is worth more than
[including] Jose Padilla who planned to build and detonate a dirty bomb in the Washington, DC
area.24 Both KSM and Zubaydah also provided important information about al-Zarqawi and his
terrorist network in Iraq killing U.S. troops. Zarqawi was subsequently killed in a U.S. air raid in
June, 2006.
Finally, Hayden and Mukasey write, As late as 2006, fully half of the governments
knowledge about the structure and activities of Al Qaeda came from those interrogations.25 In
another article, former Bush Administration official Peter Wehner quotes George Tenet, CIA
Director under both Clinton and Bush, as saying, I know this [enhanced interrogation] program
has saved lives. I know weve disrupted plots. I know this program alone is worth more than
21 Id.
I don't monitor post counts, I put it in small bites so people can get specifics to the argument quickly...like the information GAINED THROUGH WATERBOARDING. (Highlighted words for emphasis, not intended to denote yelling).
You see Tez, not everyone thinks waterboarding is ineffective in getting information. In fact, some very knowledgable people think it made all the difference in the world. I take it that you are in the military or associated in some way. If you can, ask some of your S.A.S. soldiers if they could withstand long term waterboarding. I would expect that highly trained and motivated soldiers would be able to withstand it longer than a dirt bag terrorist. Apparently, when soldiers are put through our S.E.R.E. program here, they all break. And then they go on to continue training.
You do know that the OP is about the police in Dubai using torture? I presume that is acceptable to you as I expect they just wanted to get that big bad American to talk and give them information they needed for their investigations.
You put things in small bites becuase you think people are too stupid to understand if you post all in one, how tactful of you.
THe problem with waterboarding in S.E.R.E. training:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/sere_training_and_torture/
From me, so much for waterboarding not being effective, they pre-select SERE students and these guys are often the special forces candidates, so it looks like there is disagreement to the effectiveness of waterboarding after all.
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/sere_training_and_torture/
However, that wasn’t the point, as psychologically the waterboard produced capitulation and compliance with instructor demands 100 percent of the time. During debriefings following training, students who had experienced the waterboard expressed extreme avoidance attitudes such as a likelihood to further comply with any demands made of them if brought near the waterboard again.
It’s worth noting that not only is this type of psychological damage strictly forbidden by law, the 100 percent capitulation rate...
From me, so much for waterboarding not being effective, they pre-select SERE students and these guys are often the special forces candidates, so it looks like there is disagreement to the effectiveness of waterboarding after all.
They break but do they tell the truth when they talk. Probably not.
It's no good breaking people if they either have no info or still give you the wrong information. The best way as I have said before, is to use good old fashioned intelligence gathering.
The SAS are okay but the SBS are better and the RAF Regiment rocks!!
You may not understand that waterboarding is one part of the process. They still have the guy and then they check the information against what they have from other sources and what they already know. If he is lying or making stuff up, the fear of the waterboard is still there, that is why they start telling actual information. And then our guys stop. It is not like the nazis, or pol pot or the japanese or the inquisition. Once they start talking and cooperating, the enhanced part stops. KSM began giving lectures to our intelligence types on the command and control structure of al queda as well as about specific attacks. Accordiing to the author of the book "Mastermind," a book about KSM and his history, his favorite food reward for working with us was a filet of fish sandwich from McDonalds.
the actual techniques are mentioned in the above memo.
the actual techniques are mentioned in the above memo.
I have always admired the S.A.S., from the time I read about the commandos in world war two in Time Life books on World War 2. They do rock. The Special Boat Service, they are S.A.S. but like our SEALs right?
No, they are better. They are Royal Marine Commandos, the best.
The SAS aren't commandos, they are troopers and come from various units of the army, they are squaddies.
No, the RAF Regiment rocks. Look it up.
Not to get off topic but perhaps to get on one less antagonistic, the royal marine commados? I always think of U.S. marines who are a unit of the navy and they do have a special forces component the Force Recon, and recon marines. Are the royal marines regular troops with a special forces contingent called something else, or are they themselves special forces? The R.A.F., royal air force?
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Someone here rode the short bus.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/royalmarines/history-and-ethos/history-of-the-royal-marines/index.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Boat_Service
Although is says they accept other services no one has ever been taken in from anything other than the Royal Marines.
RAF is indeed the RAF, the RAF Regiment is their spec forces. .
http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafregiment/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Defence_Police
The MDP's primary responsibility is to provide armed security and counter terrorism,
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
I can haz neggie rep from anonypus? Yay.
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