Dropping the Trapping in JKD

[turbo1975]

Also you should make the distinction between simple traps and compound traps.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Dunno about that. From my own experience and my friends' experience traditional WC based trapping works very well on traditional / classical styles, like TKD.

Since most martial artists are still doing traditional styles, I would think trapping would work against them.

Granted, trapping probably won't work against a greco or BJJ guy, especially if you play their game (no biu jees). But most people aren't them.

True, but most of us pracitce martial arts to make us competent fighters in case someone else who is competent attacks us. It makes little sense to train so that you are good enough to beat up some guy who uses AN ineffective fighting style.

"I practice martial arts. My art isn't good enough to beat up a boxer or a wrestler or a bjj player, but if a grandma or a little kid or a tae kwon do FIGHTER gets mouthy - oh yeah, it's ON!"

As far as "most people aren't them" - are you aware of how many high schools have wrestling programs? Nearly ALL of them. Know why? It's a cheap sport to provide to the kids.

So think about EACH graduating class has between 6 and 20 wrestlers from that class at EACH highschool graduating EACH year. "Most people aren't them" ? That's a lot of people with solid wrestling skills.

On top of that, you have THOUSANDS of good judo schools and BJJ schools popping up, not to mention the TONS of good MMA schools opening in each and every city, not to mention the EVEN MORE groups of people meeting in basements and back yards to train MMA.


Then you add the number of people who have been brought up in tough neighborhoods, fighting after school or before school or during school (my first two-guys-attacking-me-at-once situation was in 8th grade - by the way) .. You have loads of boxing gyms, thai boxing gyms, and even people doing Funcitonal Jeet Kune Do.

So to assume that everyone out there is doing karate or tae kwon do, and then training just for those people - doesn't make much sense. Their are craploads of peole doing functional martial arts in this country now.

 

[Bodhisattva]

^^^
also trapping can be utilized while on the ground and who's to say that ST Blast Gym's way of doing things is the bench mark for how all jkd'ers should train.

I have nothing against them and from what i've seen, they are quite prolific at what they do and it's effective for them.

It's not that SBG people don't trap it's that they don't train trapping in the old Wing Chun "energy drill" fashion. And they don't typically do backfist drills.

You could watch an SBG guy in stand up or on the ground, and you might say THERE! He just trapped the man's arm with a Pak Sao!

But, no. He didn't. Really, he just pushed the man's arm across his body with a quick bump. In wrestling, it's called a bump, or a push, or "blocking off the arm at the elbow."

But that doesn't mean the energy drills are useful. How do they know it? Because they don't do them anymore, and their "trapping" is just fine.

--

But I don't think anyone at SBG thinks they should be the bench mark for other martial artists. However, I *personally* kind of think that. I've found nothing like them - I've never met another group that coaches so well.

They remind me a lot of the dog brothers, but without revolving around stickfighting - instead revolving mostly on hand-to-hand sportive combat skills, with slight alterations for non-sportive applications.

And has such a great time.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Also you should make the distinction between simple traps and compound traps.

That's a really good point.

 

[joeygil]

@Bodhisattva

That's a good point, there are a LOT of trained fighters out there. But my point that most people aren't is based on:

Trapping in wing chun is useless against a qualified greco roman wrestlers. Really, it's useless against most people.

To me, most means 51% or greater. That means 51% of the population. I still don't believe that 51% of the population are trained fighters. Even 51% of men aren't trained fighters. I'm sort of a stickler on accurate statements.

Secondly, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. I'm not really doing MA for self-defense, like you are. I'm not a bouncer, or hang out in places where I'm likely to get in an altercation (I stopped going to bars a decade ago). So in essence, I'm not doing this to be prepared, but because I enjoy it and get a good work-out. Some people may not consider that a legitimate training goal, but that's all perspective.

From a cost-benefit analysis, I figure the most efficient use of time and money for self defense would probably be pepper-spray. Works great on boxers.

From that cost-benefit perspective, trapping to me is interesting, and I think it helps me in my sparring and such. I can see from a cost-benefit analysis that trapping can be a waste of time, since much the same effectiveness can be obtained from clinch / plaum fighting, with less time put in to learn intricacies and sensitivity for WC style trapping. It all depends on your priorities. As I get something from it, I'm still for it, for me.

 

[g-bells]

Irregardless of what people may say, simple traps will work:
1. if the opportunity is there and you are skilled in "seein/feeling' the opening
2. All ma's use traps in some form or another
3. You never go into an ingagement thinking " when he/she does this " i'll do that trap, it just happens

If you feel they are unimportant then don't do them and if you do then practice them, each and everybody has different ways of coming to the same solution "What will be the most effective tool/tools for me"

 

[joeygil]

Oh yeah, I forgot to chime in on compound traps. May be fun, but I can't imagine they would be practical on anybody besides JKDers or WC folks.

With the exception of the pak sau / punch that's blocked followed by the lap sau and punch. I don't know if that's considered "compound trapping" or not - but it's basically grabbing the blocking arm and moving it out of the way to hit. Works pretty well, but harder to pull of with boxing gloves. Anything more just feels a little silly to me.

There's also the #5 JKD dummy progression, where you throw a biu jee to draw a blocking hand/arm (lead or rear, doens't matter), and you follow with a half-beat biu sau to replace the lead biu jee, and continue your biu jee to the eyes or throat. But I think that's more ABD. It's really along the whole, "If you don't block it, I hit you. If you block it, I still hit you" motto of Sifu Dan.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Irregardless of what people may say, simple traps will work:
1. if the opportunity is there and you are skilled in "seein/feeling' the opening
2. All ma's use traps in some form or another
3. You never go into an ingagement thinking " when he/she does this " i'll do that trap, it just happens

If you feel they are unimportant then don't do them and if you do then practice them, each and everybody has different ways of coming to the same solution "What will be the most effective tool/tools for me"

Most people are not against "trapping."

Most people are against classical wing chun energy drills as a method of training them..

 

[Bodhisattva]

@Bodhisattva
To me, most means 51% or greater. That means 51% of the population. I still don't believe that 51% of the population are trained fighters. Even 51% of men aren't trained fighters. I'm sort of a stickler on accurate statements.

I'm sure it makes you popular with the ladies.

Secondly, I'm looking at it from a different perspective. I'm not really doing MA for self-defense, like you are.

Well. I do "martial art" for fun. But the thing is, if it doesn't have much utility then it is hardly martial.

I really doubt I'll ever have to defend myself ever again. I'm 34, and I've learned to avoid trouble and recognize when it's time to leave.

But I find the greatest beauty to be found in utility.

And since it is martial art we're training, utility is the utmost.

 

[joeygil]

I'm sure it makes you popular with the ladies.

I guess that's one way to retaliate when someone points out you're wrong. Personal attack. Gotta love the Internets.

Actually, the reason I'm a stickler for facts is because I'm a trained scientist. The reason I go for JKD, is I find it to be the most logical and scientific martial art around. If accuracy isn't an issue to you, then I see no point in having a discussion.

Still, I see your point that you see no utility in trapping. That doesn't mean other people won't. That's your JKD. Other people have their JKD.

 

[Bodhisattva]

I guess that's one way to retaliate when someone points out you're wrong. Personal attack. Gotta love the Internets.

Joey - it was a joke! Make a joke, and people instantly assume it's a personal attack. Gotta love the Internets.

Still, I see your point that you see no utility in trapping. That doesn't mean other people won't. That's your JKD. Other people have their JKD.

What I say is that the old Wing Chun energy drills are silly and useless for real fight training. I "trap" all the time in class. But I do it from a wrestling base. It is far more utilitarian than Wing Chun.

You can say "that's your JKD" all you like - but fighting happens within the confines of PHYSICS, Mr. Scientist. And physics is a mean b***h.

Think you're a stickler??? Physics is the real stickler, and physics governs us all.

Physics doesn't say "Hey, your chemistry is YOUR chemistry, and the other guy's views of chemistry are his. Both are good!"

No. Physics is a mean b***h. There are better ways. And the old Wing Chun stuff is not the better way.


Physics has never attended Cultural Tolerance Class. Physics really doesn't think all ways are just as good as all other ways - I know it makes people uncomfortable, but physics really doesn't care who feels uncomfortable.

 

[arnisador]

What I say is that the old Wing Chun energy drills are silly and useless for real fight training. I "trap" all the time in class. But I do it from a wrestling base. It is far more utilitarian than Wing Chun.

Can you say more about this? I notice myself "trapping" in BJJ on occasion--similar, but different!

 

[joeygil]

Joey - it was a joke! Make a joke, and people instantly assume it's a personal attack. Gotta love the Internets.

Gotcha. Sorry about that, it's a bit hard to read emotions in plain text. I guess that's why people came up with those annoying emoticons

What I say is that the old Wing Chun energy drills are silly and useless for real fight training. I "trap" all the time in class. But I do it from a wrestling base. It is far more utilitarian than Wing Chun.

I agree that there are better / more efficient ways to train for combat effectiveness than WC style trapping. In my posts, I mentioned that other trapping training (clinch / plaum / pummeling) can be more efficient. My point was there can still be something gained from learning sensitivity - it's how you hit into emptiness. When you feel the hole in your opponent's structure, you thread right in. I think you get a better appreciation for that type of attack with sensitivity training. It takes longer to learn, and hence takes longer for you to use it in a fight, unlike clinch fighting.

Sifu Dan Inosanto has mentioned on occassion to the class that Sijo Bruce Lee's trapping would just totally dominate you. He described the frustration of being tossed around like a rag doll and manipulated, while Bruce would just pound on him at will. I think that kind of control comes from tactile sensitivity training. If you think that you can beat his trapping (you know, if he wasn't dead), then more power to you.

You can say "that's your JKD" all you like - but fighting happens within the confines of PHYSICS, Mr. Scientist. And physics is a mean b***h.

If you think everybody's JKD should look just like your JKD, then we're at an impasse. I just don't agree, and suggest you read some of Sijo Bruce Lee's writing on the subject of JKD. He made it pretty clear that if something doesn't work for you, don't use it, but if something does, use it.

Think you're a stickler??? Physics is the real stickler, and physics governs us all.

Physics tells us how the body reacts when force is applied at different points from various vectors. It doesn't predicate how my opponent will attack or what he presents me as a target.

Physics won't make my opponent a trained greco guy or muay thai fighter. Thats up to him, and it's up to me how to react to him and how to force him to react to me.

Physics doesn't say "Hey, your chemistry is YOUR chemistry, and the other guy's views of chemistry are his. Both are good!"

Not really. Lets look at physics. I can name 3 models of reality that happilly coexist together. Newtonian physics, Enstein's General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics.

Quantum Mechanics is only valid at the extreme microscopic scale, and doesn't work when you dealing with everyday objects.

Relativity works at huge scales and is really the only way to do calculations of things moving near the speed of light. The equations don't work at the sub-atomic scale - that's when you go with Quantum Mechanics.

For "everyday physics" - scientists and engineers still use Newton's laws. From everything to determining how much energy comes out of a punch to landing rovers on Mars. Quantum Mechanics doesn't work at these scales, and Relativity is overly complicated and ridiculous when you're not going near 300,000 km/second.

So all 3 are good, just for different situations. Think of it as having the option to use a boxing model, a kickboxing model, or a grappling model. When you're up against a boxer, probably a good idea to use kickboxing or grappling.

But I digress.

Physics has never attended Cultural Tolerance Class. Physics really doesn't think all ways are just as good as all other ways - I know it makes people uncomfortable, but physics really doesn't care who feels uncomfortable.

Agreed, physics / science doesn't say all ways are equally valid - otherwise Astrology would be as valid as Astronomy. But it does allow for different models as long as they can stand up to scientific rigour.

That said, I don't necessarily think all JKD is really valid as "JKD." For example, I'm not a fan of teaching a low Silat stance, where you sit on your own legs, as the "JKD Low Stance." I know some have. I still think JKD needs to have a certain directness and mobility.

 

[joeygil]

One thing I forgot to add to the whole idea different people have different interpretations of JKD.

I think most people will agree that Bruce Lee did JKD. Guess what his JKD had in it? WC style trapping. So, unless you don't think Bruce Lee did JKD, then I would say JKD with WC style trapping is a valid form of JKD.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Gotcha. Sorry about that, it's a bit hard to read emotions in plain text. I guess that's why people came up with those annoying emoticons

I also tend to be an opinionated smart ***, so people rarely see how much of what I type is humor. That's ok though, it's my choice to be an opinionated smartass so I have to deal with the fallout.

I agree that there are better / more efficient ways to train for combat effectiveness than WC style trapping. In my posts, I mentioned that other trapping training (clinch / plaum / pummeling) can be more efficient. My point was there can still be something gained from learning sensitivity - it's how you hit into emptiness. When you feel the hole in your opponent's structure, you thread right in.

Right, and that's what any good Greco or Folk wrestling program will give you. And it will actually apply to fighting - unlike Wing Chun. Wing Chun will give you sensitivity when facing another Wing Chun guy - but you'd still be better with greco or folk wrestling in that situation as well.

Sifu Dan Inosanto has mentioned on occassion to the class that Sijo Bruce Lee's trapping would just totally dominate you. He described the frustration of being tossed around like a rag doll and manipulated, while Bruce would just pound on him at will. I think that kind of control comes from tactile sensitivity training. If you think that you can beat his trapping (you know, if he wasn't dead), then more power to you.

Too bad it died with Bruce. Otherwise boxers and ufc men would be terrified. I mean, even guro Dan says "I knew this guy, once, Bruce Lee.. Man, he could really apply this stuff. I mean, he was good."

Do I think *I* could beat Bruce's trapping? Well, I don't know, I don't have a small wooden idol of Bruce sitting on my shelf. He was a man. So people could beat his trapping. Could *I*? I don't know, it's a silly thought. Why don't I wonder if I could beat Musashi in sword play, or Moses at GodTalking?

I do believe Sugar Ray Leonard would beat Bruce's trapping, and I figure Randy Couture would probably roast him over a pit too, in that range.

He was no deity. And he started studying Boxing and other more functional arts for a reason.

If you think everybody's JKD should look just like your JKD, then we're at an impasse.

Nope. I don't think that. But the fundamentals DO look the same. The "art" comes in how you apply them differently than I. But the fundamentals are still the same.

You can't thow a lead hook "anyway you want." You can't jab "anyway you want." The fundamentals are the same, if they are functional.

Now, how you SET UP your lead hook may not be the same method I use to set up my lead hook. That's about style. And after a student learns the fundamentals, his style will emerge. But even then, the fundamentals remain the same. And that's because the natural laws of universe don't change much.

For example - if you "set up" your lead hook with a right cross, without throwing a jab first to set up the right cross - You're likely to get knocked out. If that is your "style" or "your expression of JKD" then good luck!

See, you might have your expression of JKD. But that doesn't mean it will help you keep from getting beat up.

I'd suggest you read some of Sijo Bruce Lee's writing on the subject of JKD.

I have, and plenty. And what I see is that in his later years he started leaving Wing Chun far behind (except for his movies - WC is flashy) - and taking up Savate, Western Boxing, Judo and Wrestling. Wow. That's a lot like MMA.


Most of Tao of Jeet Kune Do - the greatest poriton of it - is dedicated to Western Boxing. When guys at our club say "What book do I get if I want tips on boxing" I always reply "Tao of Jeet Kune Do is easily one of the best boxing manuals out there.."

I mean, granted, he fights with his strong arm as his lead - but accepting that, it's a rockin book on BOXING. With very, very little wing chun in it (comparaed to how much is devoted to boxing..)

Not really. Lets look at physics. I can name 3 models of reality that happilly coexist together. Newtonian physics, Enstein's General Relativity, and Quantum Mechanics.

"Models" are not Physics. When I say "Physics" I am not talking about a classroom or a book. I am talking about the actual natural laws of the universe that those classes and models try to explain.

There is a big difference between the CLASS or STUDY of physics, and the actual real deal. This is what "The word is not the thing" means.

This is a big problem that occurs in science. Scientists start to believe in their models more than their universe. When their models hit a problem that they cannot solve, they scratch their heads. Then a true pioneer comes forward, throws the old models away, finds a new model that will solve the new problem and still answer the old problems.

That's what Bruce did. Started with Wing Chun and moved on to other, more functional systems.

So all 3 are good, just for different situations. Think of it as having the option to use a boxing model, a kickboxing model, or a grappling model. When you're up against a boxer, probably a good idea to use kickboxing or grappling.

Except that metaphor really doesn't hold true.

Agreed, physics / science doesn't say all ways are equally valid - otherwise Astrology would be as valid as Astronomy. But it does allow for different models as long as they can stand up to scientific rigour.

And Wing Chun fighters getting beat up in combat shows that WC doesn't stand up to scientific rigor.

 

[joeygil]

Right, and that's what any good Greco or Folk wrestling program will give you. And it will actually apply to fighting - unlike Wing Chun. Wing Chun will give you sensitivity when facing another Wing Chun guy - but you'd still be better with greco or folk wrestling in that situation as well.

Agreed. I'm just saying tactile sensitivity training can still bring something to the table, and isn't utterly useless. It may be no good for you, but it may be good for somebody else. If you don't think WC style trapping is useful to anybody, under any circumstances, then we just have to disagree.

Do I think *I* could beat Bruce's trapping? Well, I don't know, I don't have a small wooden idol of Bruce sitting on my shelf. He was a man. So people could beat his trapping.

That's ridiculous. I only have the 5 foot tall poster (just kidding). I actually think Bruce Lee made a number of mistakes in his progression. I mentioned it in the "simply to simplify" thread. I think he threw things out that were no longer any use to him, but could still be useful for somebody starting out.

But my point was, that WC style trapping can be effective. You seem to be stating that it's completely useless.

Nope. I don't think that. But the fundamentals DO look the same. The "art" comes in how you apply them differently than I. But the fundamentals are still the same.

Totally agree. I went into that later in the post.

"Models" are not Physics. When I say "Physics" I am not talking about a classroom or a book. I am talking about the actual natural laws of the universe that those classes and models try to explain.

Here's the problem with that analogy. Physics, as you say in the context of natural laws, and not models for all intents and purposes are a constant. That's how the universe is.

Physics in the context of a model to explain how the universe acts, is a human construct. We've been through different models, Newtonian, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, now String Theory.

JKD is closer to the model, than the constant. If JKD were a constant, then it would never change, and Bruce Lee would never have continued evolving it up to his death.

JKD is a model, and the model has and will continue to change to adapt to contemporary combat. It's pretty obvious that JKD, as taught by Bruce Lee was pretty light in the ground grappling, compared to what we see today.

That's why most JKDers (besids OJKD) prefer to cross train with some ground work. Sifu Dan likes to mention that the technology of martial arts has changed since JKD's original conception. Which is why he incorporates ground work into his JKD.

The point is, JKD is flexable. It's not a constant.

Except that metaphor really doesn't hold true.

How so? Are you suggesting it's better to out box or a boxer? My suggestion is that one should adapt to the situation.

And Wing Chun fighters getting beat up in combat shows that WC doesn't stand up to scientific rigor.

I never advocated Wing Chun as an effective fighting style. I definately don't suggest going toe to toe with a boxer or wrestler trying to do sticky hands while in a pidgeon toed goat holding stance. Though, it probably held it's own againt the Shaolin and Taiji based styles of the time centuries ago, but as mentioned earlier, martial art technology has progressed.

I'm suggesting that aspects of Wing Chun trapping can still be valid in the context of JKD, as a fighting art. Disregarding all of the WC stuff is sort of like suggesting that all the fencing inspired stuff (half-beat, beat blocks, longest weapon to closet target, a lot of the interception), should be tossed out since fencing isn't really a viable form of self defense, since I never carry my sword with me. But do bear in mind that finger jabs to the eyes are usually against "No Holds Barred" fighting rules (ever tried passing guard with fingers coming at your eyes?).

 

[Bodhisattva]

Ok.

 

[g-bells]

Most people are not against "trapping."

Most people are against classical wing chun energy drills as a method of training them..

If it works for them, then so be it. i personally like simple and direct traps performed in different applications, no set form, more or less free flowing

 

[James Kovacich]

Can you say more about this? I notice myself "trapping" in BJJ on occasion--similar, but different!

Thats because you're getting "it."

 

[JohnK]

Hope you guys don't mind my weighing in on this....

As a long-time practitioner of martial arts and JKD, I dropped the trapping -- to an extent! So bear with me here.

I always make empirical evidence a top priority. What I've found (as have many others is that trapping in a traditional sense doesn't come through in full on fights, when people are throwing HARD. Trapping at the range that its often done will lead to tooth loss, lol. That isn't opinion so much as that's what experience has shown.

Through the extent of our experience, Greco-Roman IS "trapping" at its more natural range. The hand fighting, underhooks and overhooks do what traps are intended to do - trap the limbs and clear obstructions to hitting.

Now....

Recently I've been putting back into play a lot of the Dog Brothers material in regard to their footwork matrix and a Panantukan method. Through this experience I am beginning to see some things come out in ways I've not before because of the angles I am working now.

That said, we aren't talking about the full matrix of FMA or Wing Chun. What we are seeing are very crude and simplified methods of getting in, jamming and hitting. Emphasis on the word hit. Boxing is the core for our stand-up.

The point is that, while we have dropped 99% of the trapping that we did, we are picking back up a very small percentage of it. Only that which we've demonstrated to be functional within an MMA format -- which isn't much.

Just my opinions and experiences.