Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[JowGaWolf]

I came back from a cruise last week and did a few minutes of light sparring. I went well, no gloves, no contact to light contact. Then it happened. My opponent jumped in and I gave him a stiff arm into what I thought was his hip. He collapsed but it didn't appear to have the wind knocked out of him and he didn't appear to be trying to catch his breath. To me it wasn't a "real punch" I just extended my arm and braced for impact, and I think it was that last bit may have been where I unknowingly delivered some power. He said it felt like body weight, but to me it felt like he just ran into my fist because he jumped into it. Which meant that he was least able to resist the impact.

There have been other occasions where my opponent has jumped into me, and it resulted in more impact than what I give. On one occasion I was on the receiving end. I almost knocked myself out. When I asked what did he punch me with, he said he didn't, He just stiffened his arm and I ran into his fist.

So why am I'm bringing this up? Because I'm starting to think there is some validity of leaving the arm out after a punch.

I think the extended punch that is left out is the technique. Why would you want to do it? For the same reason I did it. To deliver a strike and prevent forward movement of my opponent. If I pull the punch back, then my opponent's momentum will continue forward. If I extend the punch and leave it, then not only are you getting the force from the punch, but you are getting force from running into it. I took a look at some of the forms in Jow Ga, TKD, and Karate and they had similar things in common. Punches that would extend and return, and punches that extend and stay extended.

When I dropped my sparring partner, I was instantly irritated because he fell from a body shot that I used less than 10% of my power to establish. Literally extend arm and stiffen arm for the impact. I thought he was insulting me. That's what it felt like, but after thinking about it for a few days maybe his reactions were honest. The only thing that makes me think this is because he specifically mentioned that he felt body weight behind the punch. I used to demo body weight punches so students could feel it. He didn't say that the punch was hard, he said that there was body weight behind it.

It took him about 10 seconds to recover. My intention is not to drop him. I have some new perspectives about the extended punch and why it's left out. I wasn't using gloves during the light sparring so I'm wondering if he caught some downward knuckle action as well. If that's the case, then it may not have the same effect if I'm wore a thick glove on.

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I came back from a cruise last week and did a few minutes of light sparring. I went well, no gloves, no contact to light contact. Then it happened. My opponent jumped in and I gave him a stiff arm into what I thought was his hip. He collapsed but it didn't appear to have the wind knocked out of him and he didn't appear to be trying to catch his breath. To me it wasn't a "real punch" I just extended my arm and braced for impact, and I think it was that last bit may have been where I unknowingly delivered some power. He said it felt like body weight, but to me it felt like he just ran into my fist because he jumped into it. Which meant that he was least able to resist the impact.

There have been other occasions where my opponent has jumped into me, and it resulted in more impact than what I give. On one occasion I was on the receiving end. I almost knocked myself out. When I asked what did he punch me with, he said he didn't, He just stiffened his arm and I ran into his fist.

So why am I'm bringing this up? Because I'm starting to think there is some validity of leaving the arm out after a punch.

I think the extended punch that is left out is the technique. Why would you want to do it? For the same reason I did it. To deliver a strike and prevent forward movement of my opponent. If I pull the punch back, then my opponent's momentum will continue forward. If I extend the punch and leave it, then not only are you getting the force from the punch, but you are getting force from running into it. I took a look at some of the forms in Jow Ga, TKD, and Karate and they had similar things in common. Punches that would extend and return, and punches that extend and stay extended.

When I dropped my sparring partner, I was instantly irritated because he fell from a body shot that I used less than 10% of my power to establish. Literally extend arm and stiffen arm for the impact. I thought he was insulting me. That's what it felt like, but after thinking about it for a few days maybe his reactions were honest. The only thing that makes me think this is because he specifically mentioned that he felt body weight behind the punch. I used to demo body weight punches so students could feel it. He didn't say that the punch was hard, he said that there was body weight behind it.

It took him about 10 seconds to recover. My intention is not to drop him. I have some new perspectives about the extended punch and why it's left out. I wasn't using gloves during the light sparring so I'm wondering if he caught some downward knuckle action as well. If that's the case, then it may not have the same effect if I'm wore a thick glove on.

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

We have some straight line drills where we punch and heel kick with opposite side foot. In those we leave the arm extended until we move. This is to teach the waist turn on the punch. Now if I leave it out there with an opponent it’s for one of several reasons, one is to put something in their way, or range them, or poke/block vision, or bait. I like some ramming techniques from Baji Quan as well that can start this way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

You may give your opponent a better chance to wrap your arm.

 

[Badhabits]

I wanna see what others say about this.
I don't believe leaving the punch out in kata is the technique- if it's a punch. If it's a grab or something, but is presented as a punch in kata that's something else.
The dojo I've been at awhile does quite a bit of leaving the punch out there. Actually we almost never retract punches. Was pretty weird to me at first. It ends up being a non issue though since your body is in motion.
We do it to train timing between punches, to obscure vision, and much of the time the punch doesn't retract at all because our bodies are moving forward. Your body moves forward to the extended fist instead of pulling the fist back to the body. The punches I'm aware of in kata that depend more on the opponents momentum crashing into them aren't at full extension, but I think the opponents momentum crashing into a technique is an often overlooked part of what's in the katas.

 

[Badhabits]

It's possible that since karate kata weren't designed for back and forth fighting your hands shouldn't be snapping back to guard position after a punch- they should be immediately doing something else- that retracting the punches are a non issue in the kata.

 

[windwalker099]

they should be immediately doing something else- that retracting the punches are a non issue in the kata.

Could be they are creating a space, though which one can enter...Boxer's do the same thing which might look like they'er reacting a punch when really they've just used it to create a space though which they either move around or step into.

Lama Kung Fu, penetrating fist used in the same way..

​

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

In another thread, someone comments that if he pulls back his punching arm as fast as he can, there is no way that his opponent will be able to wrap his arm".

In this thread, if you don't pull back your punching arm, the striking game may be over, and the wrestling game may start.

To wrap your opponent's arm in a fist flying game is not easy. If you freeze your punching arm, you just make that game easier.

 

[Badhabits]

I don't think it's implied the the punching arm is just frozen hanging out there. It's just not retracted back, after the punch that hand actively does something else, other than passively coming back to guard position. In our case we have a timing on 1-2 punch- first fist goes out, second fist launches when the first is about halfway out. The instant the first reaches target it has to move out of way of the second fist, little to no gap between the fists landing. The first doesn't come back to guard, it usually moves to grab/push/pull the opponent. When showing this to someone in slowed down time, it appears you're leaving the first arm out there where it would be easily grabbed. But at normal fighting speed that doesn't happen

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The first doesn't come back to guard, it usually moves to grab/push/pull the opponent.

This is much better strategy. You don't try to wrap my arm. I'll wrap your arm after my punch.

This is why a punch should be a punch followed by a grab/pull.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why does he bring his hand back on some punches but not on others?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why does he bring his hand back on some punches but not on others?

In your clip, he trains power generation.

This speed generation clip is different. (Between 0.13 - 0.17)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

In the following clip (normal speed, not speed up), the striking hand is not left extended. It's also not pulling back to the waist.

Both hands make a

- horizontal clockwise circle.
- horizontal counter-clockwise circle.
- vertical outward and downward circle.

When one hand is striking, the other hand always controls your opponent's arm. It's different from the boxing strategy. But I think it's a better strategy.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I came back from a cruise last week and did a few minutes of light sparring. I went well, no gloves, no contact to light contact. Then it happened. My opponent jumped in and I gave him a stiff arm into what I thought was his hip. He collapsed but it didn't appear to have the wind knocked out of him and he didn't appear to be trying to catch his breath. To me it wasn't a "real punch" I just extended my arm and braced for impact, and I think it was that last bit may have been where I unknowingly delivered some power. He said it felt like body weight, but to me it felt like he just ran into my fist because he jumped into it. Which meant that he was least able to resist the impact.

There have been other occasions where my opponent has jumped into me, and it resulted in more impact than what I give. On one occasion I was on the receiving end. I almost knocked myself out. When I asked what did he punch me with, he said he didn't, He just stiffened his arm and I ran into his fist.

So why am I'm bringing this up? Because I'm starting to think there is some validity of leaving the arm out after a punch.

I think the extended punch that is left out is the technique. Why would you want to do it? For the same reason I did it. To deliver a strike and prevent forward movement of my opponent. If I pull the punch back, then my opponent's momentum will continue forward. If I extend the punch and leave it, then not only are you getting the force from the punch, but you are getting force from running into it. I took a look at some of the forms in Jow Ga, TKD, and Karate and they had similar things in common. Punches that would extend and return, and punches that extend and stay extended.

When I dropped my sparring partner, I was instantly irritated because he fell from a body shot that I used less than 10% of my power to establish. Literally extend arm and stiffen arm for the impact. I thought he was insulting me. That's what it felt like, but after thinking about it for a few days maybe his reactions were honest. The only thing that makes me think this is because he specifically mentioned that he felt body weight behind the punch. I used to demo body weight punches so students could feel it. He didn't say that the punch was hard, he said that there was body weight behind it.

It took him about 10 seconds to recover. My intention is not to drop him. I have some new perspectives about the extended punch and why it's left out. I wasn't using gloves during the light sparring so I'm wondering if he caught some downward knuckle action as well. If that's the case, then it may not have the same effect if I'm wore a thick glove on.

Any thoughts on the extended punch and why it's left extended in the form?

I have no particular expertise to offer with regards to those forms, but with regards to the rest of the topic ...

The art of high-level striking is largely about creating collisions. If you can get your opponent to run themselves onto your strike, the force is greatly multiplied*. This applies even if your strike wasn't a power shot, so long as you have decent structure. For prime examples, look at Conor McGregor's knockout of Jose Aldo and Muhammed Ali's "phantom punch" knockout of Sonny Liston.

*(This applies even more so to thrusting with swords.)

Leaving your arm extended is usually not the best way to create this effect, since that makes it easier for a good opponent to see the possibility of the collision. However, there are exceptions. A long guard with fingers extended creates the opportunity for a free eye poke. Even if the opponent sees the danger, it makes it more difficult for them to enter. You can also sometimes have success with only partially withdrawing a punch so that the opponent doesn't notice that they are running onto a second punch with the same hand. Another possibility is to deflect a punch with a long guard and leave your fist in line for them to run onto when they follow with a second punch. In some ways you could describe this approach as using "short power", only at long range.

More common uses for long guard or a punch left extended are:

• Manipulating the opponent's head
• Covering their sight to hide another strike
• Stiff-arming the opponent to control distance
• Pulling down the opponent's guard
• Obstructing punches to set up grappling

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The art of high-level striking is largely about creating collisions. If you can get your opponent to run themselves onto your strike, the force is greatly multiplied*.

Agree with you 100% on this.

- In striking art, you want to create head on collision (force against force).
- In throwing art, you want to create rear end collision (borrow force).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

One of my favorite techniques looks absolutely bizarre. Basically as someone comes in to punch you, you lift your back leg then step back from your front, as if your absorbing the blow. Except then you lift your front leg out to a kicking stance (except you're not actually kicking). On the moment of impact, land with your back foot. You back out, and they've essentially kicked themselves in the gut for you, with your leg. The jump back gives you some distance/time to get your kick out there, and the faster they chase/follow up, the more they've hurt themselves.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One of my favorite techniques looks absolutely bizarre. Basically as someone comes in to punch you, you ...

One of the Chinese wrestlers must train techniques is:

- Your opponent uses a straight punch to your face.
- You lean your body backward 45 degrees.
- You then put one hand on top of his elbow joint.
- Use another hand to head lock his neck.
- Spring your body.
- Use leg block to take your opponent down.

The slower that your opponent pull his punch back, the easier that your take down will work. Since you only have 1/4 second to do everything right, the perfect timing is important.

 

[JowGaWolf]

poof

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have no particular expertise to offer with regards to those forms, but with regards to the rest of the topic ...

The art of high-level striking is largely about creating collisions. If you can get your opponent to run themselves onto your strike, the force is greatly multiplied*. This applies even if your strike wasn't a power shot, so long as you have decent structure. For prime examples, look at Conor McGregor's knockout of Jose Aldo and Muhammed Ali's "phantom punch" knockout of Sonny Liston.

*(This applies even more so to thrusting with swords.)

Leaving your arm extended is usually not the best way to create this effect, since that makes it easier for a good opponent to see the possibility of the collision. However, there are exceptions. A long guard with fingers extended creates the opportunity for a free eye poke. Even if the opponent sees the danger, it makes it more difficult for them to enter. You can also sometimes have success with only partially withdrawing a punch so that the opponent doesn't notice that they are running onto a second punch with the same hand. Another possibility is to deflect a punch with a long guard and leave your fist in line for them to run onto when they follow with a second punch. In some ways you could describe this approach as using "short power", only at long range.

More common uses for long guard or a punch left extended are:

• Manipulating the opponent's head
• Covering their sight to hide another strike
• Stiff-arming the opponent to control distance
• Pulling down the opponent's guard
• Obstructing punches to set up grappling

Exactly, and well articulated, thank you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have no particular expertise to offer with regards to those forms, but with regards to the rest of the topic ...

The art of high-level striking is largely about creating collisions. If you can get your opponent to run themselves onto your strike, the force is greatly multiplied*. This applies even if your strike wasn't a power shot, so long as you have decent structure. For prime examples, look at Conor McGregor's knockout of Jose Aldo and Muhammed Ali's "phantom punch" knockout of Sonny Liston.

*(This applies even more so to thrusting with swords.)

Leaving your arm extended is usually not the best way to create this effect, since that makes it easier for a good opponent to see the possibility of the collision. However, there are exceptions. A long guard with fingers extended creates the opportunity for a free eye poke. Even if the opponent sees the danger, it makes it more difficult for them to enter. You can also sometimes have success with only partially withdrawing a punch so that the opponent doesn't notice that they are running onto a second punch with the same hand. Another possibility is to deflect a punch with a long guard and leave your fist in line for them to run onto when they follow with a second punch. In some ways you could describe this approach as using "short power", only at long range.

More common uses for long guard or a punch left extended are:

• Manipulating the opponent's head
• Covering their sight to hide another strike
• Stiff-arming the opponent to control distance
• Pulling down the opponent's guard
• Obstructing punches to set up grappling

This to me these would be examples of "leaving the punch extended." TMA often have strikes that are done when the opponent can least resist it. It would be like saying that I can defend against a front kick while punching with my lead hand. If someone kicks under my punch, then there is nothing I can do to defend against that strike including tightening up my stomach and brace for impact. When I "ran into a punch" there was nothing I could have done to prevent getting hit by that fist. There are some things that once an action has been taken, there is nothing that one can do until your action is complete. Which is why step 1 + Step 2 is a better striking approach (when available) than doing step 1, then step 2. There are other examples of the extended punch. Unfortunately, not enough kung fu people out there with video of their fights showing the techniques they trained. Maybe in 5 more years, we'll start to see them?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'll see if I can find other examples.