Double Wrists Control

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wrist grip to undertook may indeed be very fast , but I don't believe it will be faster than a spring loaded strike that only has to be released.

If you look at the following 2 clips, you may find out that before your opponent may release his wrist grip, he has already guided your hand to a temporary place that will be hard for you to use it to strike him back. Also when your opponent's body is moving in with full speed, you may not have enough space to execute your punch right at that moment.

 

[K-man]

Not sure how a simple question about a double wrist grab relates to catch wrestling but an easy defence is contained in these aikido techniques. In this example the wrists are grabbed from above but the same technique works if grabbed from below as would happen if your hands were up in kamae. The bit that makes it work is two hands working in opposite directions (like Mawashi Uke if you are familiar with karate).
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xy0MFbZ9pws

or tenchinage
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g3X3XE6M2_A

or, if you like to do a hip throw you take both hands to one side and step through.
Video: Aikido Koshinage Double Wrist Grab Defense | eHow
:asian:

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In

- your example, your grips on your opponent's wrists with "tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger)" facing to you opponent. You can't take advantage on your own body weight. When your opponent tries to break your grips (against your thumb), He can move both of his hands to his center and break your grips from "inside out". This way he can still protect his "front door" and make it harder for you to enter.

- my example, your grips on your opponent's wrists with "tiger mouth (space between thumb and index finger)" facing to yourself. You can take advantage on your own body weight. Your wrist grabbing will act like a 45 degree downward "haymaker". When your opponent tries to break your grips (against your thumb), He has to move both of his hands away from his center and break your grips from "outside in". This way he will open his "front door" and make it easier for you to enter.

 

[mook jong man]

If you look at the following 2 clips, you may find out that before your opponent may release his wrist grip, he has already guided your hand to a temporary place that will be hard for you to use it to strike him back. Also when your opponent's body is moving in with full speed, you may not have enough space to execute your punch right at that moment.

Who says it has to be a punch , it could be an edge of the forearm into your neck , or an elbow strike into your sternum.
The position of the arm at the time it is released will dictate the most efficient way to strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Who says it has to be a punch , it could be an edge of the forearm into your neck , or an elbow strike into your sternum.
The position of the arm at the time it is released will dictate the most efficient way to strike.

In the

- 1st "under hook" example, your right arm is wrapped. Your left arm is under hooked, none of your arms can be functioned for striking at that particular moment.
- 2nd "head lock" example, your right arm is also wrapped. your left arm will have freedom after been released. The question is will your left arm be able to strike effectively in such a small clinching range?

 

[RTKDCMB]

In the

- 2nd "head lock" example, your right arm is also wrapped. your left arm will have freedom after been released. The question is will your left arm be able to strike effectively in such a small clinching range?

I would say yes, the guy in the headlock can use his left foot to stomp the side or the back of the other guy's leg, he can slip out behind before the headlock is fully applied, he can strike the groin with a reverse knife hand (ridge hand) or he can use a middle knuckle strike to the ribs which does not require much power to cause pain and damage.

 

[Gnarlie]

This is like a conversation with one of those new students who says 'what if' to every technique demonstrated without understanding the principle being demonstrated.

The original premise was a double wrist grab and front leg jam.

Anyone grabbing both my wrists is looking at a strike counter and probably an arm and shoulder drag or hip toss. There are loads of options and variants in an experience based tree of possibilities. If the response is drilled and fast, then there's no time to counter the counter.

There are so many viable options that I would view that double wrist grab as something of a gift.

Incidentally, catch wrestling originated in Lancashire, England, where I was born and raised. Its influence is evident in the martial arts in the area - grabbing wrists is pretty unwise where I come from.



Gnarlie

 

[zzj]

This was one of the scenarios my teacher demonstrated in an early lesson. His response was to simple sink his weight while issuing a push upwards and forwards in the direction of the opponents' pull. This immediately unbalanced the other party and seemed to almost 'bounce' him off. Of course it wasn't as simple as it looked, my teacher later explained that it was a matter of body mechanics, but the effect was pretty impressive.

 

[oftheherd1]

This is like a conversation with one of those new students who says 'what if' to every technique demonstrated without understanding the principle being demonstrated.

The original premise was a double wrist grab and front leg jam.

Anyone grabbing both my wrists is looking at a strike counter and probably an arm and shoulder drag or hip toss. There are loads of options and variants in an experience based tree of possibilities. If the response is drilled and fast, then there's no time to counter the counter.

There are so many viable options that I would view that double wrist grab as something of a gift.

Incidentally, catch wrestling originated in Lancashire, England, where I was born and raised. Its influence is evident in the martial arts in the area - grabbing wrists is pretty unwise where I come from.



Gnarlie

Yes. Or like those who have been taught a few grappling techniques by their teacher (who does not teach a grappling art), probably not taught/learned correctly, then they start telling those who do much grappling, why some particular grappling technique doesn't work.

 

[mook jong man]

In the

- 1st "under hook" example, your right arm is wrapped. Your left arm is under hooked, none of your arms can be functioned for striking at that particular moment.
- 2nd "head lock" example, your right arm is also wrapped. your left arm will have freedom after been released. The question is will your left arm be able to strike effectively in such a small clinching range?

In that first example the opponent didn't even try to get out of the wrist grab although he had ample time to.
As with most attacks it is best to counter them in the early phase before they progress to something else.

In Wing Chun we have quick release arm grabs and as the name suggests they are very quick , reflex is drilled to the point where even before the opponent completes the grip the counter has already started.

You just won't have the luxury of time to consolidate your grip , assuming that you can even get the grip on in the first instance without your hands being parried out of the way and getting several quite rapid punches in the face.

The next example is simple , why have I let some guy grab my wrist and I haven't punched him in the face with my free hand?

To take your "Front Door" analogy a bit further , what you are really asking is what are you going to do once I'm already in your house and grabbing your plasma TV.

The answer in most instances is , you are just not getting past the front door in the first place.

 

[Big Don]

An exaggerated clap, brings your right hand to his wrist, while freeing your left hand to crack him upside the head with a back fist. Or, you could do Begging Hands...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You just won't have the luxury of time to consolidate your grip , assuming that you can even get the grip on in the first instance without your hands being parried out of the way and getting several quite rapid punches in the face.

We may share different personal experience here. I had obtained my "double wrists control" against a WC instructor as the following.

- I right punch at my opponent's face.
- He uses right WC Bong Shou to block it.
- My right hand slide to his right wrist, my left hand reach to his right elbow and try to get an elbow lock.
- He drops his right elbow.
- I move my left hand to his right wrist to replace my right hand and make my right hand free.
- He tries to use his left hand to remove my left wrist holding hand.
- My right hand grab on his right wrist.
- He tries to break both of my grips but fails.

That was a very complicate way to obtain "double wrists control". Even that, it is possible to get a "double wrists control" on a WC instructor that striking is his bread and butter.

 

[mook jong man]

We may share different personal experience here. I had obtained my "double wrists control" against a WC instructor as the following.

- I right punch at my opponent's face.
- He uses right WC Bong Shou to block it.
- My right hand slide to his right wrist, my left hand reach to his right elbow and try to get an elbow lock.
- He drops his right elbow.
- I move my left hand to his right wrist to replace my right hand and make my right hand free.
- He tries to use his left hand to remove my left wrist holding hand.
- My right hand grab on his right wrist.
- He tries to break both of my grips but fails.

That was a very complicate way to obtain "double wrists control". Even that, it is possible to get a "double wrists control" on a WC instructor that striking is his bread and butter.

Not all Wing Chun instructors are created equal.
With all this grabbing going on why isn't this guy just hitting you with his free hand?

Not all Wing Chun lineages are in love with passive techniques like the Bong Sau , not when there are other more aggressive simultaneous counter attack options to use against a punch.

You just happened across one of those type of Wing Chun practitioners who have learned a diluted system and don't really understand the principles , one of the most important being the principle of "Directness".

On a side note a Jujitsu black belt tried to grab my fingers once and break them , using the aforementioned principle of directness I punched him in the face with my free hand , and that was the end of that.
Do I think that all Jujitsu people cannot guard their face against a centerline punch?
Of course not , just that guy couldn't .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you attack and put your opponent in defense mode, it's not that hard to create a "clinch". If you let your opponent to attack you, to create a clinch is still possible but much harder.

 

[wingchun100]

Not all Wing Chun instructors are created equal.
With all this grabbing going on why isn't this guy just hitting you with his free hand?

Not all Wing Chun lineages are in love with passive techniques like the Bong Sau , not when there are other more aggressive simultaneous counter attack options to use against a punch.

You just happened across one of those type of Wing Chun practitioners who have learned a diluted system and don't really understand the principles , one of the most important being the principle of "Directness".

On a side note a Jujitsu black belt tried to grab my fingers once and break them , using the aforementioned principle of directness I punched him in the face with my free hand , and that was the end of that.
Do I think that all Jujitsu people cannot guard their face against a centerline punch?
Of course not , just that guy couldn't .

And not for nothing, but who trains so that bong sao is their first response? Except for when I do the chi sao roll and my forms, I hardly ever use bong sao myself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And not for nothing, but who trains so that bong sao is their first response? Except for when I do the chi sao roll and my forms, I hardly ever use bong sao myself.

By using the WC term, to use the right Bong Shou to block the right punch is called "wrong Bong". It's a no-no.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just made some clips in my yesterday Sunday class.


Double wrists control:

Double wrists control slant cut:

 

[MJS]

What will you do if your opponent just moves in and uses his

- left hand to grab on your right wrist from outside in (this can prevent your from punching him with your right arm),
- right hand to grab on your left wrist from outside in (this can prevent your from punching him with your left arm),
- leading leg to jam your leading leg (this can prevent your from kicking him with your leading leg)?

When this happens to you, you want to break away his grips, because you want to rotate your arms to against his thumb instead of his 4 fingers, your

- right arm can only rotate counter-clockwise,
- left arm can only rotate clockwise,

When you do that, your "front door" will completely open for his attack. This is a very aggressive strategy. Your opponent just moves in and takes away your striking ability (right punch, left punch, leading leg kick) and force you to play his grappling game no matter you like it or not. What will be your reaction?

Regardless of which hand is grabbed, there are alternatives for both. There's always something that can be done. Plenty of low line kicks that can be used. You also have your free hand which can still be used to strike. Now, these kicks and strikes probably won't have KO power, but it should be enough to provide a momentary distraction or be enough for him to loosen the grip, allowing you the ability to pull your arm out or do a lock.

 

[oftheherd1]

What will you do if your opponent just moves in and uses his

- left hand to grab on your right wrist from outside in (this can prevent your from punching him with your right arm),
- right hand to grab on your left wrist from outside in (this can prevent your from punching him with your left arm),
- leading leg to jam your leading leg (this can prevent your from kicking him with your leading leg)?

When this happens to you, you want to break away his grips, because you want to rotate your arms to against his thumb instead of his 4 fingers, your

- right arm can only rotate counter-clockwise,
- left arm can only rotate clockwise,

When you do that, your "front door" will completely open for his attack. This is a very aggressive strategy. Your opponent just moves in and takes away your striking ability (right punch, left punch, leading leg kick) and force you to play his grappling game no matter you like it or not. What will be your reaction?

I am wondering if I understand you correctly. When you say your wrist is grabbed from the outside in, do you mean a cross hand grab where the attacker grabs the opposite wrist in a more or less wrist to wrist configuration? What does that have to do with double wrist grabs?

How does the opponent jam your leading leg with his leading leg, strike to thigh, ankle, shin, knee?

 

[Reedone816]

Well double wrist grab escape? That 'game' actually being shown to me the first time I came to training.
The strange thing is when I try to escape it using strength it really hard, but when I use no strength but leverage it is easy.
Just point your thumb up, keep your upper arm and elbow close to your body and keep it still, now move your hand up like pointing back with your thumb.
Now there are other solutions like free one hand and throw him to one side he is weaker. For example, when you have the right forward leg, it means you are weaker on your right side. If you put your leg even, then you are weak on forces go through your behind.
Or without freeing my hand i just move my hand so his knuckle hit his other knuckle, and from someone who has tasted it, it reeeealy hurt.
Of course there are other way like using one-zero principle, where you bait the power grip and suddenly relax your hand, this will 'shock' him and momentary he will lost strength to his arm and his body will involuntarily move forward, you put your one hand to to your hip and another one do wide circling motion above the head that will make him twist, helped with you move the orientation 180 degree, you 'lay' him and you are free to put your knee anywhere in his body or neck if you wish
The key is to identify what kind of grip you are being held, whether he put his power in his gripping hand, or he put more power in the length of arm than the grip it self. Look at the intention, to hurt the wrist or to keep your arm on check?

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