Does WSLVT exist?

[Phobius]

Jut sao? I don't understand. Why would you be jutting the palm when elbow not extended? What are you intending to train with this?

Huh? We are talking about the drill not working with a large height difference. Not talking about the drill working. You wanted an example of it not working, not of it working.

If I was doing jut sao then why would I say it did not work? I was simply giving an example as to why it did not work. You are saying that in your lineage you would simply redirect your partners arm to a higher region so it works for you.Given that you want to treat your partner as a dummy that might work well. For me asking them to do the punch in upward angle does not give that feeling I seek and its like asking to get hit. Of course it is easily remedied by moving differently but it is no longer doing what is part of the drill itself. (Yes this would be looking at the techniques to identify the drill and as such it could be called technique based even if the techniques themselves are not in focus.)

You were the one saying if the drill is changed, it is no longer part of the system.

For me it is simply one of those times where you hope your partner gets the practise he or she needs and then you move on to another partner. DCS is not really the drill I spend a lot of time doing or worrying about.

Anyways, this discussion is over. If you ever find yourself in this scenario you need to grow a lot in height which you most likely wont. For me I have given it far more attention than it is worth, discussing a scenario of two people of such major height difference just because it was stated that no matter the height the drill would always stay the same. Something I objected stating that there are exceptions to that rule.

You simply wish to refute that example is sort of like discussing stuff on a schoolyard where everyone simply has to win an argument. "What if the guy was blind, having only one arm and one leg... what then?!"

Lets end the discussion as it gives me no more value.

 

[guy b.]

Huh? We are talking about the drill not working with a large height difference. Not talking about the drill working. You wanted an example of it not working, not of it working

If you are trying to jut it then possibly a clue as to why it is not working for you

For me asking them to do the punch in upward angle does not give that feeling I seek and its like asking to get hit.

I still don't understand what the intention of this drill is for you. Can you explain please?

 

[wtxs]

I wouldn't call it "baiting" to be proudly and ignorantly wrong. Baiting requires the possibility of discussion where none is intended.

FINALLY! I'm happy you feel that way.

 

[Phobius]

If you are trying to jut it then possibly a clue as to why it is not working for you

So what kind of movement would you tell people to do when explaining how to do the drill? To counter the palm? Or are you simply saying "Just do whatever, but consider the elbow"? Because if you are, then heck yea the drill works perfectly for everyone or almost everyone all the time.

And to clarify because your memory is failing: I said that I don't consider the drill to work because I do another technique other than what is expected. I do not say I force myself to do such a techniue, that was you saying you guys do such a thing. Which made me say that your way of doing it sounds more technique based than principle.

You assume that when I say your drill seems technique based you get offended thinking I said your system is technique based. Something I never said.

Reason the discussion is over is because you are not interested in anything other than proving you are right no matter what angle you have to take. Do you even remember that the discussion is about height difference scenario still?

As for discussing DCS itself you put more value to that drill than I do. To me it teaches you proper movement with one arm before getting ready to separate two arms doing their own things individually without your brain having to focus on both arms. It is a stepping drill in regards to it being a step towards chi-sao. Not even a big step to be honest to some.

I still don't understand what the intention of this drill is for you. Can you explain please?

I wrote about that already, suggest you read it. If you do not grasp feeling and rolling as part of transitions maybe you are missing something. If that is the case, then I must ask. Are you doing Bong-sau as a technique to counter an opponent? How does that in such case work out for you and your shoulders?

 

[SaulGoodman]

So what kind of movement would you tell people to do when explaining how to do the drill? To counter the palm? Or are you simply saying "Just do whatever, but consider the elbow"? Because if you are, then heck yea the drill works perfectly for everyone or almost everyone all the time.

And to clarify because your memory is failing: I said that I don't consider the drill to work because I do another technique other than what is expected. I do not say I force myself to do such a techniue, that was you saying you guys do such a thing. Which made me say that your way of doing it sounds more technique based than principle.

You assume that when I say your drill seems technique based you get offended thinking I said your system is technique based. Something I never said.

Reason the discussion is over is because you are not interested in anything other than proving you are right no matter what angle you have to take. Do you even remember that the discussion is about height difference scenario still?

As for discussing DCS itself you put more value to that drill than I do. To me it teaches you proper movement with one arm before getting ready to separate two arms doing their own things individually without your brain having to focus on both arms. It is a stepping drill in regards to it being a step towards chi-sao. Not even a big step to be honest to some.



I wrote about that already, suggest you read it. If you do not grasp feeling and rolling as part of transitions maybe you are missing something. If that is the case, then I must ask. Are you doing Bong-sau as a technique to counter an opponent? How does that in such case work out for you and your shoulders?

It's always been my understanding that bong is a transitory movement, a pressure valve if you like. I would never conciously DO a bong Sao eg an opponent throws a punch from long bridge and I think "bong sao", rather in closer range as I'm trying to strike someone if my punching arm gets the right stimulus (attribute gained from chi Sao) I MIGHT collapse into bong to then re-open a striking line. "Bong Sao never remains" I believe is the saying. And I can't agree more with you on DCS, to me it's just an introduction to sticking hands. Once a student can smoothly perform the drill I would endeavor to move them on to double stick. People are sometimes way too precious regarding timeframes.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Nope. VT is VT

Different people certainly arrived at different results


That is why we remember what they told us

HIGHLY unlikely that Wing Chun hasn't changed in each generation that it has been passed down.
HIGHLY unlikely YM wing chun doesn't look vastly different from that which founders developed.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Again, just good common sense!

 

[KPM]

Nope. VT is VT



Different people certainly arrived at different results



That is why we remember what they told us

Its just too bad that common sense doesn't seem to be common in some circles.

 

[LFJ]

I do not say I force myself to do such a techniue, that was you saying you guys do such a thing. Which made me say that your way of doing it sounds more technique based than principle.

That's not what we said, and you're misusing the term technique. Maybe it means something else in your language.

Do you even remember that the discussion is about height difference scenario still?

Again, it's not the height difference that is causing you problems, but what you have been told the drill is for and how to do it that is causing you problems.

Your partner is doing the palm and punch incorrectly, and you have been told to use a certain technique to control their arm. Due to the height difference, if you used that technique your angles would be off, so you want to change to a different technique.

If your partner did the palm and punch correctly, and you weren't told to try and control their arm, you wouldn't have these problems. You have been taught a literal interpretation of the drill, and it doesn't work.

If you do not grasp feeling and rolling as part of transitions maybe you are missing something. If that is the case, then I must ask. Are you doing Bong-sau as a technique to counter an opponent? How does that in such case work out for you and your shoulders?

This conversation is not working. Your WT mental block is too strong.

 

[guy b.]

So what kind of movement would you tell people to do when explaining how to do the drill? To counter the palm? Or are you simply saying "Just do whatever, but consider the elbow"? Because if you are, then heck yea the drill works perfectly for everyone or almost everyone all the time

The first thing you need to do is get the palm where your elbow can interact with it. The palm is an aid in training your elbow. The punch is the same. They are not attacks for you to feel and react to. You partner is palming in the wrong place so the drill is failing.

Jut is done from an extended elbow position. When you receive the palm your elbow is neutral, so jut not a sensible response, no matter who you are training with.

I said that I don't consider the drill to work because I do another technique other than what is expected. I do not say I force myself to do such a techniue, that was you saying you guys do such a thing. Which made me say that your way of doing it sounds more technique based than principle.

DCS is not teaching technique or principle. It is teaching basic elbow mechanics.

As for discussing DCS itself you put more value to that drill than I do. To me it teaches you proper movement with one arm before getting ready to separate two arms doing their own things individually without your brain having to focus on both arms. It is a stepping drill in regards to it being a step towards chi-sao. Not even a big step to be honest to some.

But it sounds like you do not have this basic drill functioning, as you describe with a shorter person. Moving on from a non-functional drill sounds like a bad idea.

 

[Phobius]

The first thing you need to do is get the palm where your elbow can interact with it. The palm is an aid in training your elbow. The punch is the same. They are not attacks for you to feel and react to. You partner is palming in the wrong place so the drill is failing.

Could be that they are aiming slightly below my center. Not a forward palm but an upward for them so if aiming at my center it would be a bit beneath the center due to not being at hitting range.

Not sure you grasp this concept of angles but it is like that. So in your view you would ask them to aim higher which shortens the distance even more. Just to have their palm at center height.

As I said. Point of reference if they hit straight forward they hit me in the stomach so that is why their palm is upward angle.

It is needed not to be within hitting range to get proper training in it. If I can hit then I will hit. Or it won't remain true. And I do not intend to hit other students in that drill.

Jut is done from an extended elbow position. When you receive the palm your elbow is neutral, so jut not a sensible response, no matter who you are training with.

Hmm, meant jum sao btw. Just noticed I have been writing jut. I can accept this being partially confusing because of it.

I have a terrible memory for names. Always had, a biological thing.

DCS is not teaching technique or principle. It is teaching basic elbow mechanics.

Without doing a technique? Interesting. Your beginners are not ready for force but they already know all about force to do proper elbow mechanics without a technique? Seems we have different meaning of the word techniques. And don't say it is because of language. It is because of how we are taught to view the world. Philosophy 101.

But it sounds like you do not have this basic drill functioning, as you describe with a shorter person. Moving on from a non-functional drill sounds like a bad idea.

Yes this must be it. Thanks to you I am now aware of the enlightenment and will forever seek the higher knowledge you hold on everything.

Mocking aside.

I said the drill does not work against a shorter person. Because I do not have the space or angles I need. If you say DCS is drill where you can do whatever you want then fine, it works against anyone. But to me it is only the drill if we keep within the confines of the drill. Otherwise it is another drill.

Does it matter? Only if the elbow movement that is to be trained is not the one you can do. But the drill is different and therefore not the same.

 

[LFJ]

I said the drill does not work against a shorter person. Because I do not have the space or angles I need. If you say DCS is drill where you can do whatever you want then fine, it works against anyone. But to me it is only the drill if we keep within the confines of the drill. Otherwise it is another drill.

It is as I said taan > palm > bong / fuk > jam > punch, not whatever we want, and it works with anyone if you both do it correctly with the right conceptual basis.

As an arm-feeling and controlling "versus" drill with techniques taken at face value, it doesn't work as you have found but misattribute to height differences.

Without getting together and showing it to you, I don't think you will be able to get past your WT mental block here and grasp the concept that is being described to you.

You also seem unbothered by a broken foundational exercise. So, I think we should just hang this one up.

 

[Phobius]

It is as I said taan > palm > bong / fuk > jam > punch, not whatever we want, and it works with anyone if you both do it correctly with the right conceptual basis.

As an arm-feeling and controlling "versus" drill with techniques taken at face value, it doesn't work as you have found but misattribute to height differences.

Without getting together and showing it to you, I don't think you will be able to get past your WT mental block here and grasp the concept that is being described to you.

You also seem unbothered by a broken foundational exercise. So, I think we should just hang this one up.

I can accept this. Also I find it problematic to explain in English so lets agree to drop this.

I have personally already moved past DCS and don't give it a high value anymore.

Still interested in touching hands as well as sparring with someone from WSLVT and someday I might. After all that lineage has mastered the punching itself in my view.

 

[Phobius]

Can also add, since I cannot edit my previous post. I am not interested in winning some debate, that would not make me a better martial artist.

All I am interested in is finding new ways to view things, new angles of approach. Not because I doubt anything I do, but because I believe in mixing martial arts to get the best of all worlds. Not a purist.

So what I am saying is I do listen to what you write about how you do things despite arguing my own case.

 

[geezer]

...I have personally already moved past DCS and don't give it a high value anymore.

I would recommend against writing-off Dan Chi Sau just because you are at a more advanced level in your training.

Returning to DCS and elevating it to the level of your current understanding can be very valuable. Advanced Dan Chi Sau will involve more subtle manipulations of energy, more variation in power and position, stepping and turning, ....in general it allows for more possibilities. Periodically returning to DCS to explore these possibilities, while isolating them to the use of one hand in the context of a non-competitive drill can be very instructive. Then when you switch back to Chi Seung Sau/Poon Sau, things will often seem clearer.

Anyway it works in my VT/WT/WC. Guy and LFJ do something else, I'm sure.

 

[Phobius]

I would recommend against writing-off Dan Chi Sau just because you are at a more advanced level in your training.

Returning to DCS and elevating it to the level of your current understanding can be very valuable. Advanced Dan Chi Sau will involve more subtle manipulations of energy, more variation in power and position, stepping and turning, ....in general it allows for more possibilities. Periodically returning to DCS to explore these possibilities, while isolating them to the use of one hand in the context of a non-competitive drill can be very instructive. Then when you switch back to Chi Seung Sau/Poon Sau, things will seem seem clearer.

Anyway it works in my VT/WT/WC. Guy and LFJ do something else, I'm sure.

That kind of drill we already do but not in sequence such as Dan chi sao according to most. We do it with random movements as well as focusing on a single one. Not specifically Dan chi sao, but parts of it. And sometimes even longer drills.

In no way sticking to a purist view but following the concepts.

Also I don't say we skip DCS, we still do it. Just that I have not put much attention at all to it lately.

But I will try that out with a non short person. A short person some people say will work but if my attack lands on them it is not Dan chi sao anymore.

 

[geezer]

...But I will try that out with a non short person. A short person some people say will work but if my attack lands on them it is not Dan chi sao anymore.

If you are not doing stepping with the drill, just put the short guy on a crate, you know, ....to boost the little runt up a bit!

...Unfortunately for me I am the short guy! Not a midget, but only 5' 8". When I work with really tall guys (anyone over about 6' 2") I feel like I'm working uphill to stay on our connected centerlines. I remember my old sifu used to tell us that the drill of chi-sau worked best when practiced with a partner of similar height. In the context of our lineage or branch of VT I still believe that to be so.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also I don't say we skip DCS, we still do it. Just that I have not put much attention at all to it lately.

Actually, when one of your arms contact with one of your opponent's arms, your other arm hasn't made contact with your opponent's other arm yet is a much more common situation in fighting.

 

[Phobius]

Actually, when one of your arms contact with one of your opponent's arms, your other arm hasn't made contact with your opponent's other arm yet is a much more common situation in fighting.

Thing is that using both arms is not about dealing with two arms for me. It is about disconnecting the arms so they can operate individually. Well that is one of many things at least.

So doing chi sao for me with both arms has little to do with fighting. It is just perfecting my skills, senses, structure, movement and correcting my elbow (heard this one a few times before).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To doing chi sao for me with both arms has little to do with fighting. It is just perfecting my skills, senses, structure, movement and correcting my elbow (heard this one a few times before).

Chi Shou can be part of your fighting. If you use it to train fighting, it will be good for fighting.

For example,

- Both you and your opponent have right leg forward.
- You use your left hand to parry down your opponent's leading right arm (one of your arms contact with one of your opponent's arms).
- When he responds your left arm, your right hand punch at his face.

Your right hand function as "door knocking" (similar to a boxing jab). When your opponent responds to it (open his door), you enter his door and punch him (similar to boxing cross).