Does WSLVT exist?

[LFJ]

You end this topic like that makes it impossible to discuss further. Not all are beginners.

DCS is advanced training for you?

Your opinion only. No point continuing discussion since discussing opinions will lead nowhere.

It's extraordinarily rare for anyone to use elbows correctly in full moving, free flow exercises before even learning DCS. Even at later points in development it's often the first thing to give under pressure.

Technique is whatever you do within a set of rules. A single action. A technique can also be a set of techniques done in sequence.

A movement can contain multiple techniques as time and need changes.

If you are a programmer I see technique same as they do a function. A function can call other functions. A movement is like a thread calling different functions based on events or other reasons.

Techniques can be for drill only purposes or fighting applicable as well. It can be as simple as having 135 degree angle and hands up. Not needing to be defined by rules all the way to smallest piece.

A punch can be a technique with sets of techniques but during application in real time it is a movement that would be called punching but is not the same because that punch may change on input. A technique is nothing you do but rather something that defines something so it can be taught and trained.

Then by god if you ever become sick and can't practice for a week or two you Ving Tsun will always be inferior because you changed order of how it was taught.

W-W-What? Why? What are you talking about? Students aren't taught at their own pace in your organization?

Edit : with force I mean there is a forward intent. Not brute force.

And in case you missed something. I don't try to hit anyone. But I do not move against my muscle reflex.

No forward intent or muscle reflex in DCS. Too early. Must learn basic elbow control before worrying about that kind of stuff that can screw it up. Horse before the cart, please.

What? You have something against shorter people? Or women perhaps? This sounds rather offensive claiming they have to be kids because they are short.

There is no reason you should need to contort yourself in order to do DCS with anyone above 5 feet tall, unless you are doing something terribly wrong.

If you know anything about VT you would not ask me to define a movement. It depends is the best answer I can give.

DCS to you is a drill in which you are free to attack and defend as you wish?

I've been talking about taan > palm > bong / fuk > jam > punch. One of those is getting messed up for you and you are forced to change it to something else? Like what?

So your arms out from center are right between the upper arms? Then why say you keep it lower?

Some set the dummy to resemble a person of a certain height, often a taller person. Many will place the upper arms at shoulder level. That's too high and will encourage lifting and reaching. Everything will be wrong.

The dummy is supposed to refine position by restricting our actions to within our own boundaries, not in reference to an imaginary opponent of a supposed height.

 

[Phobius]

DCS is advanced training for you?

I thought we were having a serious discussion. This is just silly comment. You think forms, a VT punch, footwork or anything else for that matter being advanced training? There are just two types of training. One is to learn what you dont know, the other is to improve what you already know.

It's extraordinarily rare for anyone to use elbows correctly in full moving, free flow exercises before even learning DCS. Even at later points in development it's often the first thing to give under pressure.

This is a problem for VT? Perhaps you should reconsider your way of training in such cases.

Hey, it is easily understood for me. But putting too much worth with a word like technique you must understand serves little value. You can do a VT punch and call it a technique, or a bong-sau... or whatever. When you however do it at other points its not a technique, its a lot of techniques creating a movement. Nothing is frozen in order to identify it as a technique unless you freeze time. Whatever is, changes to whatever will be. So a technique becomes no longer a technique but a move...

I am not making myself clearer, am I? Perhaps helps if you are a programmer, my mind is kind of binary. Whatever that gives me, I am terrible with names and non-logical matters.

W-W-What? Why? What are you talking about? Students aren't taught at their own pace in your organization?

We dont need to keep our students away from drills of the rest of class for very long. They do not perform well for some time, but doing drills and training with better students actually force them to learn and improve. Plus they don't get bored from doing same tedious drills for beginners over and over. What I see is that in the end they learn quicker some of them at least this way.

Others I dont think would learn either way because their mind and heart is not into it. Of course then there are other classes, other lessons where beginners do not attend. But they are in addition to normal training.

As to how and why this occurs, well I will not give more details on the matter because this is a system that my sifu operates.

No forward intent or muscle reflex in DCS. Too early. Must learn basic elbow control before worrying about that kind of stuff that can screw it up. Horse before the cart, please.

This is VT specific concern. We dont see that problem, those that already have forward intent will not get rid of it just because of a drill. Those who dont well then they have another value from DCS drill that others don't. I have said before that me personally dont do DCS often anymore.

I am not concerned about DCS, I was simply correcting you when you said something similar to there being no difference being a tall guy. Something I disagree on since there are some exceptions that may or may not be the norm pending on who your partner is.

There is no reason you should need to contort yourself in order to do DCS with anyone above 5 feet tall, unless you are doing something terribly wrong.

You understand that means there is a 1'5'' height difference. This probably means a 5-7'' reach difference on the arms. Do you grasp how little space there will be between these two people when doing DCS. The short person will feel to the tall person like he/she is practically hugging you given your own reach. That feeling makes you want to move back to get to better range, or to knock/throw/trip down to the ground. You will feel it in every fiber of your body (yes I do grappling as well not as part of WT but on the side).

DCS to you is a drill in which you are free to attack and defend as you wish?

I've been talking about taan > palm > bong / fuk > jam > punch. One of those is getting messed up for you and you are forced to change it to something else? Like what?

I see, missunderstood you. The palm is coming from low point moving straight forward, so in order to control the arm I need to collapse my arm and sink my elbow (because of tight space between us or short person will be too far away). To me that collapse is not desirable, it is not how I have been taught because a collapsed elbow just works during drills but real life it will give you a lot of pain.

As for the punch it will come up from a hard angle meaning the bong sau will be forced because it is not the natural rolling action that would trigger a bong sau. As such the feeling is off.

Once more this is something that can happend with a big heigh difference. Because you said it can't I simply said that you miss the situation when height difference is present.

I mean I do not recollect the details perfectly in my head so this is an effort to try and analyze a vague memory. This was not a drill I did recently with a short person, but in the last year or two I have some memory of having been in such a situation twice.

Some set the dummy to resemble a person of a certain height, often a taller person. Many will place the upper arms at shoulder level. That's too high and will encourage lifting and reaching. Everything will be wrong.

The dummy is supposed to refine position by restricting our actions to within our own boundaries, not in reference to an imaginary opponent of a supposed height.

Hey, I said nothing. You were the one stating it was shorter than normal. I found it interesting and not bad in any way. That is why I asked the question as to how much shorter in general does VT practitioners set their wooden dummy. If you do not set it to be shorter then fine, I did not say you did.

Being as tall as I am, the wooden dummy at my school is a lot shorter than what should be the norm for me. It does not serve a problem as it is not TOO short. I was just interested in the reasoning why you did it not to satisfy the height of most but rather as a general rule, in case it was a general rule.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Yep, then you see some of the people who YM taught before he moved to Hong Kong like Lun Gai.

 

[guy b.]

The palm is coming from low point moving straight forward, so in order to control the arm I need to collapse my arm and sink my elbow (because of tight space between us or short person will be too far away).

Are you saying that the short person can't reach your elbow with their palm? This seems a bit unlikely.

To me that collapse is not desirable, it is not how I have been taught because a collapsed elbow just works during drills but real life it will give you a lot of pain.

What is a collapsed elbow?

As for the punch it will come up from a hard angle meaning the bong sau will be forced because it is not the natural rolling action that would trigger a bong sau. As such the feeling is off.

You are just training your elbow to move tan to bong. What trigger do you need? You seem to be treating the drill as some kind of reflex development thing? As long as your arms can meet I don't see an issue. If you really are training with dwarves or children then I suggest you kneel down to do it.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yep, then you see some of the people who YM taught before he moved to Hong Kong like Lun Gai.

Interesting, is this related to William Cheung, or not? Looks like his material.

 

[KPM]

Interesting, is this related to William Cheung, or not? Looks like his material.

Yes it is! This is Linda Bernieckie doing a demo of her stuff while visiting the Lun Kai school. This is NOT Lun Kai Wing Chun! She and her husband call their thing "Jee Shim Wing Chun", but they are a spin off from Cheung's TWC.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yes it is! This is Linda Bernieckie doing a demo of her stuff while visiting the Lun Kai school. This is NOT Lun Kai Wing Chun! She and her husband call their thing "Jee Shim Wing Chun", but they are a spin off from Cheung's TWC.

Ah, I see. The post was very misleading, I thought it was supposed to represent Lun Kai Wing Chun. Thank you.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Doh! Got that wrong. I have seen a form of Lun Kai's though that looks way different.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

But on the subject of William Cheung, I have a friend who is adamant that his system is too perfect to have been made up and therefore it must have been taught to him exclusively by YM.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Any training that you only move your arm without moving your body is a no no to me.

I like to see "body movement" instead of just "arm movement". I like the following clip better. I can see his body and arm are function as one unit. I can also see his power comes from the ground. What do you guy think about this clip?

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Depends how you look at it.
For us we learn force generation from the static position in SNT. Then build on that with other forms that slowly introduce movement.

 

[KPM]

But on the subject of William Cheung, I have a friend who is adamant that his system is too perfect to have been made up and therefore it must have been taught to him exclusively by YM.

Yeah. That's a load of BS.

 

[KPM]

I like to see "body movement" instead of just "arm movement". I like the following clip better. I can see his body and arm are function as one unit. I can also see his power comes from the ground. What do you guy think about this clip?

Using whole body power is good! But that clip is very exaggerated. Unnecessarily so! This is where Andreas Hoffman learned to do his forms so "exaggerated." Cheng Kwong is his primary teacher.

 

[KPM]

This little jewel of a comment was just made on another forum. It has nothing to do with the dynamic duo, but was simply summing up someone else's impression of WSL lineage people. I thought I would leave it here for your enjoyment.

IMO... (Oh God, I can already feel the responses coming)... WSL lineage guys have a certain mindset that comes directly from the way they train. It's a relatively simple approach to Wing Chun, with no complicated or sophisticated power generation methods, and is based around heavily training a fairly simple set of drills that maintain a line, cut angles, etc., and with a focus on disengaging (so placing very little emphasis, sometimes none at all, on sticking). It's simple, and it works well, especially when playing with people from 'other WCK' lineages. Why? Because a 'simple, trained well' method often beats 'detailed, but longer to master' methods. Because of this, many people from the WSL lineage seem to have a feeling of superiority. Simply put, WSL guys often do what they do better than other Wing Chun lineages doing what they do. To me, WSL guys often look a little stiff in their movements, and often use a fair amount of muscle, but... they make it work.

 

[Nobody Important]

Any training that you only move your arm without moving your body is a no no to me.

I like to see "body movement" instead of just "arm movement". I like the following clip better. I can see his body and arm are function as one unit. I can also see his power comes from the ground. What do you guy think about this clip?

I appreciate the idea of body movement. It is a practical method of unifying movements and generation of power from the ground up. But this is a little too exaggerated. It reminds me of beginner stage. Wing Chun is more refined like Tai Gik Kuen, the movements are smaller and led by the body. Rotation adds to power generation, evasiveness and extension. Emphasis is on unified body movement in a small space. This video shows big movement not yet refined . And the springiness does not allow for hard bridge application, just whipping and sticking. That being said I can appreciate what is being expressed. Everyone has a different approach.

 

[Nobody Important]

This little jewel of a comment was just made on another forum. It has nothing to do with the dynamic duo, but was simply summing up someone else's impression of WSL lineage people. I thought I would leave it here for your enjoyment.

IMO... (Oh God, I can already feel the responses coming)... WSL lineage guys have a certain mindset that comes directly from the way they train. It's a relatively simple approach to Wing Chun, with no complicated or sophisticated power generation methods, and is based around heavily training a fairly simple set of drills that maintain a line, cut angles, etc., and with a focus on disengaging (so placing very little emphasis, sometimes none at all, on sticking). It's simple, and it works well, especially when playing with people from 'other WCK' lineages. Why? Because a 'simple, trained well' method often beats 'detailed, but longer to master' methods. Because of this, many people from the WSL lineage seem to have a feeling of superiority. Simply put, WSL guys often do what they do better than other Wing Chun lineages doing what they do. To me, WSL guys often look a little stiff in their movements, and often use a fair amount of muscle, but... they make it work.

Simplicity and practicality go hand in hand. Many branches of Wing Chun over complicate with sophisticated theory and convoluted applications when the solution can be solved with the simplest of methods. I would rather learn something that can be learned today and applied effectively in a short span, than learn something that takes months or years before it can be used effectively. The simple and practical applications can be honed over time just as the sophisticated ones are. Difference is the time invested before you get a profitable return.

 

[PiedmontChun]

You can generate power using your whole body without bobbing up and down, or swaying in and out. SNT teaches this in the punch / palm strikes, and especially in the fak sau / gum sau portion. The arms might seem to be moving in isolation but it involves the whole body cooperating to have power.
Your body can "move as one unit" without having all of your limbs constantly retract, using exaggerated movements to do so. Moving more than necessary to perform an attack or defend seems to me to be the antithesis to good Wing Chun, not sure why it would be a good thing for forms to reinforce such an idea.

 

[LFJ]

This is a problem for VT? Perhaps you should reconsider your way of training in such cases.

Loss of elbow control (and balance, facing, footwork, etc..) under pressure is a problem for humans. VT training helps, but only if you don't screw up the process by inserting things where they don't belong or learning things out of order.

We dont need to keep our students away from drills of the rest of class for very long. They do not perform well for some time, but doing drills and training with better students actually force them to learn and improve. Plus they don't get bored from doing same tedious drills for beginners over and over. What I see is that in the end they learn quicker some of them at least this way.

Sounds like more of a student retention tactic than a systematic approach to developing fighting skills.

I am not concerned about DCS, I was simply correcting you when you said something similar to there being no difference being a tall guy.

You didn't correct anything. I said a "principle based system" can accommodate all shapes and sizes without change. What you have described is a technique based "versus" drill.

Your problems are caused by what you have been taught the drill is for and how to do it, not by your height.

The palm is coming from low point moving straight forward, so in order to control the arm I need to collapse my arm and sink my elbow (because of tight space between us or short person will be too far away).

Your partner is doing the palm incorrectly and you're chasing hands because you have been told you must control their arm.

As for the punch it will come up from a hard angle meaning the bong sau will be forced because it is not the natural rolling action that would trigger a bong sau. As such the feeling is off.

Your partner is doing the punch incorrectly and you're chasing hands because you have been told you must stick to their arm.

 

[Phobius]

Loss of elbow control (and balance, facing, footwork, etc..) under pressure is a problem for humans. VT training helps, but only if you don't screw up the process by inserting things where they don't belong or learning things out of order.

Learning things out of order will always occur unless you put all your starting students in a specific course where they need to do each step individually before being allowed to pass on to the next. As such not being able to see or hear what other students on next steps are doing.

This was ways of old, not way of the europeans in a modern society. So every time a student miss a few classes which they will for sickness, vacation, working overtime, training something else... you name it. They will miss out on parts of the teaching and continue where everyone else are at the point when they return. Perhaps not a good thing but it is reality, and another thing that is reality as well. In time those students have a chance to become just as good and sometimes even a lot better than other students.

Their path is not doomed from the start.

Sounds like more of a student retention tactic than a systematic approach to developing fighting skills.

Cant teach someone martial art if they are not present during class. But way to ignore the part where I said we see no downside with it.

You didn't correct anything. I said a "principle based system" can accommodate all shapes and sizes without change. What you have described is a technique based "versus" drill.

Your problems are caused by what you have been taught the drill is for and how to do it, not by your height.

Actually you are wrong in more ways than one. I was the one saying I cant do what I am supposed to do in that drill properly if the height difference is too big. You are the one saying this drill should just be about the technique of using your elbow properly. No realistic force management, no reaction to force. No reflexes, no sensing nothing. So you are the one describing the drill as purely technique based.

Or perhaps you mean something else with technique, because you may no sense right now?

Your partner is doing the palm incorrectly and you're chasing hands because you have been told you must control their arm.

Hey, you are wrong yet again. Chasing hands are what you are doing given that you do the drill in a forced way to focus on elbow without any care for what your partner is moving, the angles, any potential force (Or you claim there is no force ever? Nice going then to have your students so in control they have no force in their move.)

So I say to you, stop chasing their hands. I know you call it a beginner drill but as you said, it leads to bad habits.

Your partner is doing the punch incorrectly and you're chasing hands because you have been told you must stick to their arm.

You are chasing a conclusion that is pretty far out there. This logic is similar to me saying I have a car and you following up saying "You need to stop buying yellow cars thinking you are some kind of race driver" when my car is in silver color.

Here is a little newsflash for you, you are not me. You have no clue what I do, or how I do it. Next time you feel the need to make assumptions out of thin air then stop writing that text altogether and realize you are just a troll. Truth hurts but then again self realization and understanding who and what you are may be a critical element of being a martial artist.

And yes I reported myself now for this post but I despise trolling.