Danjo
Master Black Belt
For instance? (Not being confrontational, just curious).
Does this actaully work for Self Defense
- Thread starter ziason
- Start date
For instance? (Not being confrontational, just curious).
marlon
Master Black Belt
I think Danjo has a great point that i have addressed only indirectly. We the students must work / test/ practice our supposed skills in as realistic a manner as possible. If your instructor is not doing this and you do not want to find another or cannot then do it yourself. I am sure you can find at least one other who thinks like you and get started. This applies to all styles. Make it work...it is your training after all not anyone else's.
BTW 3 works just fine if the attacker is bent over...it flows like aikido or it can stop start like some hawaiian kempo but it works
Respectfully,
Marlon
Danjo
Master Black Belt
The only way I've been able to make it work properly off of a right-cross is to use the left hand to check the attacker's punch and hold onto it while executing the groin/bladder punch and then yanking the attacker by the arm into a modified right backfist over the arm into the temple. Otherwise, the attacker is in the wrong position for the follow-up moves.
Gufbal1982
Purple Belt
It's also the reason why I left. I gave too much and got nothing in return...no, I take that back. They gave me an experience I will never forget. I learned from it...grown...and all that mess.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Your not becoming a buddha head are you?
Gufbal1982
Purple Belt
Ussd's version of a buddha head, yes. Meaning, I will teach martial arts AND have a professional career.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Heretic!
RevIV
Black Belt
The way you are describing 3 is the way i have always done it. If the control of the attacking arm is good enough you push the arm down bringing the head down a little with it into the Modified Back fist. We also try to strike under the ear when we reach around for the take down. All i can say is i am curious to some techniques and how most of the other branches of Kempo i have seen come from different attacks. Through searching i have found many techniques were meant originally to be taught off of the right cross, the 1 -2 punch, kicks and so on. In my school we teach combination one off of a right front kick and then a right, left hook. All we did was change some of the timing the rest of the technique is identical. Also someone brought up Combo 4 - the original 4 brought over from SGM Pesare does not jump on the groin, face or shoulders. After you blast the guy in the face with the kick you wait to see where he lands, run up the side of him drop your knee on his face or collar bone and strike the neck. I was told this technique was created by Prof. Walter Godin. Has anyone else heard this? Things changed over the years for reasons only the people who changed them can know. I see the next generation of SKK teachers breaking the mold of these teachings but keeping the core. Right straight step through for every combination? not in my school, not any more, not ever again.
Jesse
Gufbal1982
Purple Belt
I agree there and I have heard that 4 was created by Prof. Walter Godin. I know if I ever run a school again, I will not teach defenses off of a 1/2 moon forward and right punch. Considering most attackers on the street throw overhand rights or lefts and/or haymakers, I would prefer to start them with that for practical reasons.
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Sounds like you guys think for yourselves and are creative in your approach.
RevIV
Black Belt
We try, with the blessings of our teachers. before i read how you pulled off 3 on the cross punch i was going to write,, just wait for the left jab and do the technique lefty.
Jesse
kosho
3rd Black Belt
I train in shaolin kempo for many years. I now learn and teach kosho Ryu Kempo. But my base of teaching is in shaolin kempo karate. I just now add the pricaples of kosho to all my comb, kempo's, etc to the shaolin kempo karate.
i look for all the things in my pinions and katas.
more than the punch, block, kick.
the throwing arts, escapeing arts, controlling arts, ETC.
its all there just some, not all Villiar teachers never learned the things inside of the forms...
I now teach the shaolin kempo karate to all my students show them the old way it was tought.( TO ME)
and how I now teach the same thing just with some Kosho idears and the teq now work that much better. FOR ME
not to say it won't for others. but what i do see is that my students are growing faster that the other shaolin kempo school in 2 towns away...
not in rank color just in skills and info...
mu 2 cents
steve
i look for all the things in my pinions and katas.
more than the punch, block, kick.
the throwing arts, escapeing arts, controlling arts, ETC.
its all there just some, not all Villiar teachers never learned the things inside of the forms...
I now teach the shaolin kempo karate to all my students show them the old way it was tought.( TO ME)
and how I now teach the same thing just with some Kosho idears and the teq now work that much better. FOR ME
not to say it won't for others. but what i do see is that my students are growing faster that the other shaolin kempo school in 2 towns away...
not in rank color just in skills and info...
mu 2 cents
steve
shaolin ninja 4
Green Belt
Who did you train under steve?
What didn't you like about shaolin kempo/what did you like?
Why did you leave villaris/ussd?
What was fred villari like? What were his master instructors like? In and out of the dojo?
marlon
Master Black Belt
Actually you do not need to block. The move is a good cover off the right hook or an attack to the head then continue the technique. If you are waiting to block and you are above brown or black belt you are limiting your kempo...my opinion of course and i am certainly no master...this is what training has taught me. Try your techniques against someone swinging multiple un- choreographed strikes at you. SK works beautifully
Respectfully,
Marlon
marlon
Master Black Belt
Its not so much that all the techs come toguether for you, but that you become more tuned into the moment.
Sean
Scherazade
White Belt
This reminds me of a class I taught on a couple of months ago (I study and teach SKK in a school not affiliated with any organization):
I told my fellow students to pick five combinations and practice them with their partner stepping in with a forward karate punch. Then I told them to take those five combinations and, with their partner, completely rip them apart. I wanted them to discover for themselves how some techniques, as taught, are far from foolproof. I wanted them to analyze every block, strike, kick, and the footwork to see what could work and what wouldn't on the street. Them I told them to modify the combinations to still preserve the principle but to make it more practical. By the end of the class, every student had a better idea what is practical for them and what wasn't.
In our school we always learn a technique from the straight punch so we can see theoretically how something should be done. But alternate forms of attack should be explored at advanced ranks; at least green and above. It's also important to practice techniques left and right handed (in other words do everything with the opposite hand or way than normal).
I also want to add, as this is my first post, that this is a great forum to have actual discussions with people about the martial arts. So many other forums seem to degenerate into shouting matches about which style is better or which lineage is the most correct (whatever that means). It's nice to see that civil conversations about the martial arts are possible on the internet.
I told my fellow students to pick five combinations and practice them with their partner stepping in with a forward karate punch. Then I told them to take those five combinations and, with their partner, completely rip them apart. I wanted them to discover for themselves how some techniques, as taught, are far from foolproof. I wanted them to analyze every block, strike, kick, and the footwork to see what could work and what wouldn't on the street. Them I told them to modify the combinations to still preserve the principle but to make it more practical. By the end of the class, every student had a better idea what is practical for them and what wasn't.
In our school we always learn a technique from the straight punch so we can see theoretically how something should be done. But alternate forms of attack should be explored at advanced ranks; at least green and above. It's also important to practice techniques left and right handed (in other words do everything with the opposite hand or way than normal).
I also want to add, as this is my first post, that this is a great forum to have actual discussions with people about the martial arts. So many other forums seem to degenerate into shouting matches about which style is better or which lineage is the most correct (whatever that means). It's nice to see that civil conversations about the martial arts are possible on the internet.
In contrast Kajukenbo was designed as a self defense system to be used against street attacks. In the time of it's creation and for the most part today, most street criminals did not have any formal martial arts training. The ones that were skilled were either the guys from the poor neighborhoods who boxed as kids and teens, or guys who were just plain mean and vicious.
Besides being martial artists, the Kajukenbo founders (at least 4 of the 5) were also boxers, who knew that the majority of real fights weren't going to be won with one punch.
They also knew they were not going to have a street fighter attack them with a step in lunge punch to the solar plexus. When you get in a fight, someone's going to try to punch you in the face, break your nose, break your jaw, knock you out.
With this in mind they designed the Kajukenbo punching defenses (Punch Counters) and break holds (Grab Arts) to be done against a variety of punching attacks that are targeted to the face. Punch Counters are done against a right cross, left jab/right cross combination, right cross/left hook combination, etc, etc.
Many of the Grab Arts are done against someone who grabs your shirt and hook punches, grabs your shoulder from behind and turns you for a right cross to the face, etc, etc.
Somewhere down the line from Gascon, Pesare, Cerio, and Villari, things changed. Sometimes change is good, and sometimes it's good to re-examine what was changed.
Besides being martial artists, the Kajukenbo founders (at least 4 of the 5) were also boxers, who knew that the majority of real fights weren't going to be won with one punch.
They also knew they were not going to have a street fighter attack them with a step in lunge punch to the solar plexus. When you get in a fight, someone's going to try to punch you in the face, break your nose, break your jaw, knock you out.
With this in mind they designed the Kajukenbo punching defenses (Punch Counters) and break holds (Grab Arts) to be done against a variety of punching attacks that are targeted to the face. Punch Counters are done against a right cross, left jab/right cross combination, right cross/left hook combination, etc, etc.
Many of the Grab Arts are done against someone who grabs your shirt and hook punches, grabs your shoulder from behind and turns you for a right cross to the face, etc, etc.
Somewhere down the line from Gascon, Pesare, Cerio, and Villari, things changed. Sometimes change is good, and sometimes it's good to re-examine what was changed.
kosho
3rd Black Belt
Hopfully this will anser your ???
Who did you train under steve?
I trained under master James Wright. He was a really nice person and finally went on his own and opened up some schools out of state.
What didn't you like about shaolin kempo/what did you like?
At that time I loved it all. Forms I would say where the best for me to do. I went in on days off and let the upper ranks use me as a uke.
Why did you leave villaris/ussd?
It was a villaris school. It finally closed. this was in the early 80's when it opened . before Mr. Villari upset his upper teachers. all where still with him.
I worked on my own after it closed. and then some time went by and a person named jean arseanualt came to town and he opened a local dojo a few towns away from me and it was shaolin kempo, but with a twist. he also tought BJJ. so I started training with him for some years until I tracked down Shihan Tom Ingargiola out of NY and Master John Evans out of NH. and I would do video training with Shihan I and physical training with master Evans. master Evans took me to a seminar with Hanshi Juchnik and thats when I started to add Kosho to my shaolin kempo. and I still take and teach BJJ. I like the mix of the 3 systems.
I also have gone to seminares with prof kimo. and a large list of others.
What was fred villari like? What were his master instructors like? In and out of the dojo?
I trained only a few times with Some of the other master all seemed nice. There was a couple Names I will not go into that where a** ****
but I think you would get that from any system or what not.
If the school never closed I would still be in it proberly working for fred v some where. But i liked how it all played out for me.
I now am working on my 4th degree in SKK under Tom I and Master Evans.
and My Kosho info Comes under master Evans and Hanshi Juchnik. when he is out on the east coast. witch is a lot. I also travel to seminars all over the U.S.A. in Kosho. I have Pat kelly flying in from Calf: in march he will be doing a 10 hr work shop seminar on kosho. he has been with hanshi
juchnik for about 30 years.
Hope this ans. some of what you where looking for.
best to you steve
Who did you train under steve?
I trained under master James Wright. He was a really nice person and finally went on his own and opened up some schools out of state.
What didn't you like about shaolin kempo/what did you like?
At that time I loved it all. Forms I would say where the best for me to do. I went in on days off and let the upper ranks use me as a uke.
Why did you leave villaris/ussd?
It was a villaris school. It finally closed. this was in the early 80's when it opened . before Mr. Villari upset his upper teachers. all where still with him.
I worked on my own after it closed. and then some time went by and a person named jean arseanualt came to town and he opened a local dojo a few towns away from me and it was shaolin kempo, but with a twist. he also tought BJJ. so I started training with him for some years until I tracked down Shihan Tom Ingargiola out of NY and Master John Evans out of NH. and I would do video training with Shihan I and physical training with master Evans. master Evans took me to a seminar with Hanshi Juchnik and thats when I started to add Kosho to my shaolin kempo. and I still take and teach BJJ. I like the mix of the 3 systems.
I also have gone to seminares with prof kimo. and a large list of others.
What was fred villari like? What were his master instructors like? In and out of the dojo?
I trained only a few times with Some of the other master all seemed nice. There was a couple Names I will not go into that where a** ****
but I think you would get that from any system or what not.
If the school never closed I would still be in it proberly working for fred v some where. But i liked how it all played out for me.
I now am working on my 4th degree in SKK under Tom I and Master Evans.
and My Kosho info Comes under master Evans and Hanshi Juchnik. when he is out on the east coast. witch is a lot. I also travel to seminars all over the U.S.A. in Kosho. I have Pat kelly flying in from Calf: in march he will be doing a 10 hr work shop seminar on kosho. he has been with hanshi
juchnik for about 30 years.
Hope this ans. some of what you where looking for.
best to you steve
Danjo
Master Black Belt
Here's an interesting side note: The number 3 combination has had a lot of changes to it over the years. This is from someone that trained with Persare, Cerio and Villari:
There was no soft inward block in SK's original #3, that was improvised probaly because of inexpereinced ukes 'following' you with the punch. Now, it seems to have been adopted as standard.
Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents.
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