Does this actaully work for Self Defense

[jenngibbs2000]

I think techniques and defensive maneuvers are intended to build muscle memory and then can be applied in whole, or more likely in part, during real world situations.

One of my training partners was attacked by a guy swinging a golf club like a side club. He applied principles of a side-club kempo defense and was able to protect himself.

Also, real dragon circles, where opponents are genuinly punching in, are a great way to see if your instinct is to react with muscle memory or freeze trying to think what to do next.

 

[marlon]

We have not dropped 'realistic' attacks we just build confidence and muscle memory first...then we up the stakes. I have seen bad posture and basd habits persist because someone went too quickly to the realistic attack sequence before getting the proper technique and corrections and understanding. i guess we want to end up in the same place Danjo, we just have differing training methodologies.. For the record if one keeps thier kempo at the step thru punch stage...this is not good kempo

Respectfully,
Marlon

Well, you can probably make something work if you tried hard enough. But, my point is why not train from a more realistic attack scenario to begin with? How many people are going to attack you in the street with a karate forward punch attack? Much more common to be hit with a right cross, so why not train that way?

I can understand the Okinawan and Japanese systems not training that way in order to maintain their traditional art intact, but why would an American martial art that is supposed to focus on street fighting not adjust itself accordingly? For that matter, why, if as some people claim, SKK is a distant relation to Kajukenbo, would they have dropped the defenses against a right cross etc. and opted to go back to a less realistic Karate type of attack in the first place?

 

[Danjo]

We have not dropped 'realistic' attacks we just build confidence and muscle memory first...then we up the stakes. I have seen bad posture and basd habits persist because someone went too quickly to the realistic attack sequence before getting the proper technique and corrections and understanding. i guess we want to end up in the same place Danjo, we just have differing training methodologies.. For the record if one keeps thier kempo at the step thru punch stage...this is not good kempo

Respectfully,
Marlon

You're pre-supposing that correct form is only possible when starting from a classical Okinawan karate punch. Proper form in the basics is always what is needed, but one does not have to begin with an unrealistic approach in order to have good basics.

The idea that one should learn an unrealistic defense first before learning a realistic one is the opposite of a good idea IMO.

The picture I get from the scenario presented by jenngibbs2000 is slightly flawed as I don't remember the SKK club counters being done with clubs as long as golf clubs are. That would require a preliminary jump towards the opponent in order to do you technique. If that were something you had time for, it would mean that you had plenty of warning. Most club defenses are done with clubs the approximate size of a police baton from what I remember, and were designed to be able to be used against either clubs of that size and range down to a beer bottle size of "club" etc.

In either case, you're still talking about someone attacking you in a way consistant with how you trained. You're not talking about someone hitting you with a side swing when all you've been learning to defend against was a formal Samurai downward slash from someone holding a broom stick.

 

[Danjo]

How an art looks isn't a measure of it's effectiveness. Pencak Silat has some of the oddest looking moves I've seen so far in MA. It looks a bit goofy, until you are taken down by it.

Quite true. The question is this (and you'll have to answer it for me since I am unfamiliar with that particular art outside of magazine articles): Do the attacks they teach you to defend against resemble something you're likely to see in a real fight? If so, then it's a good way to train regardless of how it looks. If not, then the same argument applies, i.e., it's easy to look good if you're telling your opponent how to attack you.

Defenses should be developed for what we are likely to encounter, not what we hope to encounter.

 

[marlon]

i am not pre supposing anything...it has ben my experience that teaching students this way helps me to see some natural errors and helps them correct them and prepares them for differing attacks. If you get down to it training with partners who respect you and like you is not realistic either. but it is functional towards training learning and getting better. Again, our methodologies differ i prefer the method i have with progressive development i feel it is the best way for me to help the student becomer good and able to defend against many different attacks. The techniques and system work if taught properly. i know you had a bad experience and so have i in the past. You found your answer in another system i found mine within the system with a good instructor and developing a more realistic approach to training.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

i am not pre supposing anything...it has ben my experience that teaching students this way helps me to see some natural errors and helps them correct them and prepares them for differing attacks. If you get down to it training with partners who respect you and like you is not realistic either. but it is functional towards training learning and getting better. Again, our methodologies differ i prefer the method i have with progressive development i feel it is the best way for me to help the student becomer good and able to defend against many different attacks. The techniques and system work if taught properly. i know you had a bad experience and so have i in the past. You found your answer in another system i found mine within the system with a good instructor and developing a more realistic approach to training.

Respectfully,
Marlon

No problem. Just bouncing ideas and observations off of you. BTW, I have tried the #3 combo the way you're saying and what I found was that if I bounced right up, they could still get you with the knee, but in the groin rather than the face.

See, the #3 combo has a couple of faults with it. 1st: it assumes a Karate forward punch attack. Second: it assumes that after you've hit the Uke in the groin, that he will still be standing upright waiting for you to pop-up and do the shoulder grab and takedown. They are both unrealistic scenarios. If the uke were to use a right cross, the groin wouldn't be in the same position for you initial strike. It would require a side hammer fist instead of the thrust punch. Secondly, if you DID hit him in the groin, then he'd fall forward too far for the second part of the technique to work. Third, assuming that the first two parts were somehow possible, his feet are in the wrong position for the shoulder grab and takedown. All of which goes back to my original contention: It is designed to work off of a Karate Forward punch, and assumes that the uke will still be upright after the groin strike. The same is true of the takedowns in all of the SKK combos. They all assume the forward stance in order to perform the hocks, sweeps and throws.

 

[marlon]

Danjo said

No problem. Just bouncing ideas and observations off of you. BTW, I have tried the #3 combo the way you're saying and what I found was that if I bounced right up, they could still get you with the knee, but in the groin rather than the face.

i like you. If you keep your feet set then yes you can get hit in the groin. But if you follow the upward strike with your hips them you tend to slided to the side of the attacker. also the strike to the groin is a front punch it can hit the groin the outer thigh or the inner thigh depending on the depth. With proper body alignment you should not only bring the attack downwards but also move them off thier center. Now the upward strike can be a back 2 knuckle but also a rising forearm or elbow without changing the motion of the combo. Striking hard at the head should also move them back yo need to move with a control at the shoulder with a grip at the neck or opposite shoulder makes the twist takedown smooth and easy if thier feet are not in the right postition for you to make it easy as you slide in to maintain control you cxan sweep their foot towrads the rear (like a de ashi barai from judo). None of this changes the movement of the combo. It takes less than 2 seconds to pull #3 off against a resisting attacker.

Respectfully,
Marlon


See, the #3 combo has a couple of faults with it. 1st: it assumes a Karate forward punch attack. Second: it assumes that after you've hit the Uke in the groin, that he will still be standing upright waiting for you to pop-up and do the shoulder grab and takedown. They are both unrealistic scenarios. If the uke were to use a right cross, the groin wouldn't be in the same position for you initial strike. It would require a side hammer fist instead of the thrust punch. Secondly, if you DID hit him in the groin, then he'd fall forward too far for the second part of the technique to work. Third, assuming that the first two parts were somehow possible, his feet are in the wrong position for the shoulder grab and takedown. All of which goes back to my original contention: It is designed to work off of a Karate Forward punch, and assumes that the uke will still be upright after the groin strike. The same is true of the takedowns in all of the SKK combos. They all assume the forward stance in order to perform the hocks, sweeps and throws.

 

[Danjo]

i like you. If you keep your feet set then yes you can get hit in the groin. But if you follow the upward strike with your hips them you tend to slided to the side of the attacker. also the strike to the groin is a front punch it can hit the groin the outer thigh or the inner thigh depending on the depth. With proper body alignment you should not only bring the attack downwards but also move them off thier center. Now the upward strike can be a back 2 knuckle but also a rising forearm or elbow without changing the motion of the combo. Striking hard at the head should also move them back yo need to move with a control at the shoulder with a grip at the neck or opposite shoulder makes the twist takedown smooth and easy if thier feet are not in the right postition for you to make it easy as you slide in to maintain control you cxan sweep their foot towrads the rear (like a de ashi barai from judo). None of this changes the movement of the combo. It takes less than 2 seconds to pull #3 off against a resisting attacker.

Respectfully,
Marlon

Well, it sounds like you alter and vary the combination enough to account for various difficulties I've encountered with it. You don't just stick with the party line if it isn't working for you. Take care,

Dan

 

[MJS]

No problem. Just bouncing ideas and observations off of you. BTW, I have tried the #3 combo the way you're saying and what I found was that if I bounced right up, they could still get you with the knee, but in the groin rather than the face.

See, the #3 combo has a couple of faults with it. 1st: it assumes a Karate forward punch attack. Second: it assumes that after you've hit the Uke in the groin, that he will still be standing upright waiting for you to pop-up and do the shoulder grab and takedown. They are both unrealistic scenarios. If the uke were to use a right cross, the groin wouldn't be in the same position for you initial strike. It would require a side hammer fist instead of the thrust punch. Secondly, if you DID hit him in the groin, then he'd fall forward too far for the second part of the technique to work. Third, assuming that the first two parts were somehow possible, his feet are in the wrong position for the shoulder grab and takedown. All of which goes back to my original contention: It is designed to work off of a Karate Forward punch, and assumes that the uke will still be upright after the groin strike. The same is true of the takedowns in all of the SKK combos. They all assume the forward stance in order to perform the hocks, sweeps and throws.

Its been a while since I've run through this technique, but I learned it not by hitting the groin with the punch, but hitting the right side of the ribs. Personally, I don't like to put myself in an awkward position to get a strike, so if it means making a slight adjustment, I'd rather do that.

Thoughts?

Mike

 

[Danjo]

Its been a while since I've run through this technique, but I learned it not by hitting the groin with the punch, but hitting the right side of the ribs. Personally, I don't like to put myself in an awkward position to get a strike, so if it means making a slight adjustment, I'd rather do that.

Thoughts?

Mike

Well, that's sort of what I'm talking about. TEchniques aren't always going to be able to work as is in every circumstance, but they should come as close as possible in terms of being realistic to begin with. Now, I fully agree with what Doc has written in terms of not sacrificing the basics in order to inovate etc., but that doesn't mean that you don't actually formulate set techniques that come as close as possible to reality.

One way to achieve this, IMO, is to have the attacker come at you in a realistic way. Look at how people tend to attack you and then create set techniques to deal with them. If one trains to defend against unrealistic attacks, then one's muscle memory will be out of whack in terms of what it is used to. A traditional Karate forward punch is very unlikely to be encountered in a real fight, so the question arises: Why train to defend against one? However, a boxer's right cross is much more likely to be encountered provided the attacker has a modicum of fighting skill. Hence, defenses designed to counter this attack are more useful. SKK, for some reason I haven't been able to fathom, stopped training their counters against the boxer's punch in favor of the Karate punch. I suspect it has to do with the limited curriculum that Pesare had when he left Gascon and the fact that he had to supplement it with TKD and other traditional martial arts to make a complete program.

 

[DavidCC]

Its been a while since I've run through this technique, but I learned it not by hitting the groin with the punch, but hitting the right side of the ribs. Personally, I don't like to put myself in an awkward position to get a strike, so if it means making a slight adjustment, I'd rather do that.

Thoughts?

Mike

that's how it is taught at our school, to the ribs, for pretty much the reasons Danjo described.

 

[MJS]

Well, that's sort of what I'm talking about. TEchniques aren't always going to be able to work as is in every circumstance, but they should come as close as possible in terms of being realistic to begin with. Now, I fully agree with what Doc has written in terms of not sacrificing the basics in order to inovate etc., but that doesn't mean that you don't actually formulate set techniques that come as close as possible to reality.

One way to achieve this, IMO, is to have the attacker come at you in a realistic way. Look at how people tend to attack you and then create set techniques to deal with them. If one trains to defend against unrealistic attacks, then one's muscle memory will be out of whack in terms of what it is used to. A traditional Karate forward punch is very unlikely to be encountered in a real fight, so the question arises: Why train to defend against one? However, a boxer's right cross is much more likely to be encountered provided the attacker has a modicum of fighting skill. Hence, defenses designed to counter this attack are more useful. SKK, for some reason I haven't been able to fathom, stopped training their counters against the boxer's punch in favor of the Karate punch. I suspect it has to do with the limited curriculum that Pesare had when he left Gascon and the fact that he had to supplement it with TKD and other traditional martial arts to make a complete program.

Agreed.

 

[ziason]

Interestingly my teacher just decided he needed to address this very issue in class. I'm not sure if he got wind of the thread here or what, but he basically said you really just use whatever pieces of the techniques fit the situation and the point to the combinations, et all is just to train your body to react and apply without having to think about what to apply. I think I can accept that explaination.

 

[Gufbal1982]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

You gotta remember one thing..."combinations" or "dm's" are going to teach you a concept and not necessarilly something you would use in the street. In fact, you may never use a complete technique. I know I'm never using combination 14 in a fight...I think it's silly and I can't do a scissor's kick very high. However, I'd still teach it because of the lesson that someone can gain from it. Your job as a student is to think about the fighting concept that is being taught. Take for instance combination 6. You kick the person before the punch gets to you...right? Yes. So, what are we really learning? We are learning TIMING. I have put a lot of thought into this and that's what I think we learn from it. Let's take another one...combination 2. If you really think about it, there's a lot of circles in this combination. what do we learn? a law of kempo! a circle can defeat a straight line. There's so many more lessons from the techniques. I used to make sure I told my students that they may never use a complete technique but they'll use the concept that they get out of the technique. As you progress in the martial arts, you will learn different lessons from every single technique. After almost 20 years of shaolin kempo, I still learn from combination 6 every single time I do it.

 

[Gufbal1982]

No problem. Just bouncing ideas and observations off of you. BTW, I have tried the #3 combo the way you're saying and what I found was that if I bounced right up, they could still get you with the knee, but in the groin rather than the face.

See, the #3 combo has a couple of faults with it. 1st: it assumes a Karate forward punch attack. Second: it assumes that after you've hit the Uke in the groin, that he will still be standing upright waiting for you to pop-up and do the shoulder grab and takedown. They are both unrealistic scenarios. If the uke were to use a right cross, the groin wouldn't be in the same position for you initial strike. It would require a side hammer fist instead of the thrust punch. Secondly, if you DID hit him in the groin, then he'd fall forward too far for the second part of the technique to work. Third, assuming that the first two parts were somehow possible, his feet are in the wrong position for the shoulder grab and takedown. All of which goes back to my original contention: It is designed to work off of a Karate Forward punch, and assumes that the uke will still be upright after the groin strike. The same is true of the takedowns in all of the SKK combos. They all assume the forward stance in order to perform the hocks, sweeps and throws.

Dan, if you remember, I used to say to punch them in the bladder. None the less, you're right. They do assume that you are going to be attacked by some uke from a karate dojo. Really realistic, right? same with the hocks, sweeps and throws. It sucks that they teach like that. SKK people should seriously branch out and take some classes to learn how to do those things properly. Remember, SKK is sort of incomplete because you barely scratch the surface of techniques with it. I branched out to study a lot of other styles and now I'm a much more well rounded fighter and I understand kempo better now than before.

 

[shaolin ninja 4]

DM three can work if you side glide to the side and and punch and block at the same time.

 

[Danjo]

Dan, if you remember, I used to say to punch them in the bladder. None the less, you're right. They do assume that you are going to be attacked by some uke from a karate dojo. Really realistic, right? same with the hocks, sweeps and throws. It sucks that they teach like that. SKK people should seriously branch out and take some classes to learn how to do those things properly. Remember, SKK is sort of incomplete because you barely scratch the surface of techniques with it. I branched out to study a lot of other styles and now I'm a much more well rounded fighter and I understand kempo better now than before.

Yes, you gave us alternate targets to strike with that one (and some others). I always liked SKK interms of comparing it to Shotokan due to it's versatility. However, I do wish that they had more realistic attacks to counter.

You do realize that you were something of an anomaly in the USSD world don't you? It's the reason I quit when you left.

 

[KempoFlow]

I don't take anything you said as a slam, and I'm not trying to slam them either. I think my instructor is good, and the school is good too. I just want to be sure I get the most I can from what I'm learning. My goal is to really learn the material in a way I can actually use it, not just memorize it to the point I can display it, if you take my meaning.

From what I understand from my sensei is that it all starts to come together at the green belt level. Up until then, you are really just learning the movements and learning to flow. At green and above, you are then learning to put the power behind what you have already learned.

I do understand what you mean by some of the moves to be a little choreographed, but I trust sensei, and if she tells me that it will come together later I believe her. She is quite amazing to watch.

 

[Tenguru]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

No. They don't work.
They are somewhat useful for learning body mechanics, though.

 

[Hand Sword]

Hmm, a fight? You mean punching, kicking, grappling, blocking etc.., Nah, never seen any of that in SKK. (

)

All the systems work ladies and gentlemen. Again, for eternity, it's the practitioner, not the style.

To answer the original question, yes I Have used SKK for real, it worked just fine.