Does The Learning Ever Stop?

[MJS]

Do you feel that you can ever reach a point in your training, when you can no longer learn anything from your teacher? Assuming that you've put in a good 20 years at least, for the sake of discussion. Does the learning stop or do you feel that a teacher will always have something to offer?

This is a question that came up during a discussion with a good friend, who is also a martial artist. As a focal point, he used my Kenpo training as an example. All total, I've put in 26yrs, with a few different teachers. Although I've changed teachers, for various reasons, I've dedicated the majority of my time, in Kenpo. Since I'm once again in limbo with a Kenpo teacher, he made the statement that rather than seek out yet another teacher, instead, focus my time now, on attending camps, seminars, etc, with various Kenpoists. He went on to say that he felt that at this point in my Kenpo training, it'd be rare that I'd see something so new that I'd go 'ohh and ahh' over it. Instead, focus on working with people for the sake of continuing with the journey, so to speak.

This thread really isn't about me per se. I'm simply using the discussion that I had, as a discussion topic here, as well as to get the opinions of everyone here. For the record, my decision regarding Kenpo is to put it on the back burner for now. Currently, I've changed paths, and have begun a new art, under a new teacher, and I have to say, I'm enjoying it very much.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No you never stop the learning process. Usually there is some thing more to learn. However, it is not always realistic to stay with one teacher forever. ie. move away, etc. I have had many teachers and each one of them has been incredibly important to my growth as a martial practitioner. When talking or training with them I always pay attention and try to learn more even if I do not train with them on a regular weekly basis anymore. They are my teacher's and I owe them alot. Your friend is correct in one thing at this point in your training and without a teacher you certainly could benefit a lot from going to different Kenpo seminar's as well as other seminars in other systems to enhance your training. It is also great that you have a new teacher in a new art! Just keep exploring and enjoying the training. Enjoying the training is so important for longevity!

 

[Flying Crane]

yes, I would say that you can reach a point where a particular teacher has no more to teach you, or with whom you will no longer advance and grow. That's not the same thing. They may still have things that they can teach you, but it is possible that what they have to teach you is not relevant to your path of growth. That's a point that you need to be able to identify for yourself.

As far as having NO teacher, and being responsible for your own development, I think you should always be in that state even if you still have a good teacher who has plenty to teach and guide you with. But yes, you can also determine that the best path for your growth, at least for a while, means to have no teacher, and to be free and loose to find your own way with what you have learned. That's absolutely viable and I think with the number of years you have in, completely reasonable and realistic. Then possibly one day you will stumble into a teacher who has a lot to teach you, a rare individual, and you can begin your journey again with him/her.

Honestly, Mike, I'm not a big fan of seminars. The reason is this: it is a short period with someone who is not your teacher, with whom you do not have an ongoing relationship, and I think it's difficult or impossible to properly learn anything concrete. That short training period teaches you the shell of something, but it takes a relationship to get the constant feedback and correction needed to make that shell into something worth while and meaty. Otherwise you have learned something superficially, and it will always only be superficial if you don't get further guidance. Given that, I don't see the point in the exercise and I don't see the point in keeping things learned in this manner. I know a lot of people would disagree with me.

Here's my suggestion: Given your history in the martial arts and particularly kenpo, there's no further curriculum that you need to learn, if you wish to keep kenpo as your system. You know enough, probably too much in fact. You probably know enough that it can literally get in the way of itself and even be a burden and a speed bump in your training. If there is another kenpo kata, or another list of SD techs that you haven't learned, don't worry: you don't need it, it would be a waste of your time. Don't go chasing after a magic bullet that doesn't exist.

What you should be looking for is a way to do everything better. Look at the underlying methodology of how you deliver your techniques. Are you satisfied that the method is the best? Might there be a better method, a better approach, to execute the same material? Might someone be able to guide you in this? Even someone from outside kenpo, but whose methodology you might be able to adapt to your kenpo? I'd say that is the kind of information that you should be looking for, that's what might help you grow more. If someone offers to teach you Long Form 17 and Short Form 9, and 30 more SD techs, you should decline. that is exactly what you do not need at this stage. Waste of your time and effort, and it will just slow you down. Don't look for techniques. Look for a methodology, a platform for delivery. that's where the real keys are, the real secrets. It all comes back to the basics anyway.

 

[rickster]

Do you feel that you can ever reach a point in your training, when you can no longer learn anything from your teacher? Assuming that you've put in a good 20 years at least, for the sake of discussion. Does the learning stop or do you feel that a teacher will always have something to offer?

This is a question that came up during a discussion with a good friend, who is also a martial artist. As a focal point, he used my Kenpo training as an example. All total, I've put in 26yrs, with a few different teachers. Although I've changed teachers, for various reasons, I've dedicated the majority of my time, in Kenpo. Since I'm once again in limbo with a Kenpo teacher, he made the statement that rather than seek out yet another teacher, instead, focus my time now, on attending camps, seminars, etc, with various Kenpoists. He went on to say that he felt that at this point in my Kenpo training, it'd be rare that I'd see something so new that I'd go 'ohh and ahh' over it. Instead, focus on working with people for the sake of continuing with the journey, so to speak.

This thread really isn't about me per se. I'm simply using the discussion that I had, as a discussion topic here, as well as to get the opinions of everyone here. For the record, my decision regarding Kenpo is to put it on the back burner for now. Currently, I've changed paths, and have begun a new art, under a new teacher, and I have to say, I'm enjoying it very much.

That's the beauty about various martial arts.

You can choose to further your knowledge by other arts/instructors

 

[Gentle Fist]

I think you can learn all one single person has to offer... That is why it is good to have multiple instructors in a lifetime.

One motto I have heard from quite a few instructors is: "My goal is for my student to surpass me in skill and ability".

 

[WC_lun]

I think it depends upon the instructor and the system they are teaching. I trained 13 years under an instructor and realized I was stagnated and not getting answers to to questions I had. It was a tough decision, but I moved on. A decision like this should not be a spur of the moment thing, but if you are not learning and growing as a martial artist, why are you training at the place you are? I don't mean to be condescending with that question, just something to think about.

 

[Buka]

Oh, how I wish the learning would just stop. But you HAVE to stop it sooner or later as a matter of common sense and appreciation of time. As the years pass, you have to hone your skills, you don't need to add to them. If you haven't got it by now, punt.

 

[elder999]

I''m gonna split your post up-it's quite interesting, actually, in parallel with some things I've been putting a post together for myself.

Do you feel that you can ever reach a point in your training, when you can no longer learn anything from your teacher?

Sure. Mind you, your original question:Does the learning ever stop? My answer is pretty much, no. There often comes a day, though, in any subject, that the student surpasses the teacher, or learns all they have to offer. I look forward to achieving as much with one of my students, some day.

Assuming that you've put in a good 20 years at least, for the sake of discussion. Does the learning stop or do you feel that a teacher will always have something to offer?

Different teachers offer different things-a teacher will always have something to offer, though it may just be one thing. I spent some time in the Bujinkan-before it was the Bujinkan, before it was "Budo Taijutsu," per se, and it was "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu," just to learn more about the hanbo-it's not all I learned, but it's the one thing that I wanted to keep. Sometimes we move around a bit-I certainly have, and that limits our choices for instruction-I've gleaned a little bit from a few things over the years, broadening my knowledge, but I've also gone to some depth in others-I think depth is more valuable, but those gleanings are valuable as well.

Likewise, I learn things from my students, who often offer insights and perspectives-or little lessons from teaching them that they're not even aware of....

This is a question that came up during a discussion with a good friend, who is also a martial artist. As a focal point, he used my Kenpo training as an example. All total, I've put in 26yrs, with a few different teachers. Although I've changed teachers, for various reasons, I've dedicated the majority of my time, in Kenpo. Since I'm once again in limbo with a Kenpo teacher, he made the statement that rather than seek out yet another teacher, instead, focus my time now, on attending camps, seminars, etc, with various Kenpoists. He went on to say that he felt that at this point in my Kenpo training, it'd be rare that I'd see something so new that I'd go 'ohh and ahh' over it. Instead, focus on working with people for the sake of continuing with the journey, so to speak.

Aside from the value of seminars and different people, time spent training alone-especially after spending time in an art, internalizing principles, can be extremely valuable as a learning experience-especially if you're a congenital klutz with various physical challenges like me. I say that because it's true, and also as an example-not everyone is going to do things the same way, no matter how much their teachers may try to, or learn things the same way. I spent my first year in tae kwon do with my teacher telling me to "turn your hip in" when I did a side kick. This meant nothing at all to me, even when he would place his hands on my hip and physically turn it inward with my leg extended in a side kick-it wasn't until I watched people who I knew were kicking well, and observed how their kicking foot was turned, and turned my foot that way, that I succeeded in "turning my hip in." It may not seem like much, but it was a valuable insight for me as an 11 year old student, and, later, as a teacher-not everyone uses or recognizes the same language around physical actions, and, as a teacher, it's an advantage to have more than one way of verbally and physically expressing what's being demonstrated.

For the record, my decision regarding Kenpo is to put it on the back burner for now. Currently, I've changed paths, and have begun a new art, under a new teacher, and I have to say, I'm enjoying it very much.

This. I took up aikido and a form of kali a few years back, and it's been very rewarding, both for my own practice, and the insights they've offered into the arts I already had some time in. Sometimes, we do have to seek out other, or new teachers, for various reasons-depending on where you are in your development, instruction from a much older teahcer might not be what you need-in spite of what they might have to offer in terms of knowledge, their practice and form might be focused on very different things: efficiency vs. power, say-if you're in your teens or twenties, and your teacher is in his 70s, while he might be able to teach you a great deal, he might not be interested in developing exactly what it is you need at that age.

Learning never stops.....part of the whole point of taking arts up, really......

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Flying Crane pretty much nails it.

Yes, you can reach a point where you're no longer learning anything you need from a given teacher.
No, you never reach the end of what you can learn in a given art.
After a certain point, the most important things you learn are not new techniques, but new refinements on the same old techniques you learned in your first 6 months of training. You might learn those refinements through focused experimentation on your own or through one-on-one coaching or through seminars or through any number of other channels.

 

[Xue Sheng]

All I am doing here is reiterating what has already been said...

Short answer: No, learning never stops, and it shouldn’t

Long answer: Learning never stops but you can stop wanting to learn a style because as you advance your needs as it applies to SD can change or what you are looking to get out of a specific MA changes as you get older. And as already stated you can reach the limits of a teacher and need to look beyond that teacher, kind of like going from 1st grade to 2nd grade and all the way to a College degree. But there are those teachers that can teach you for a lifetime too.

Old CMA saying, external goes to internal and internal goes to external, basically once you leanr one you need to learn the other and this is not a quick process. To learn a style, any style, takes a lifetime and part of that learning is learning is what it teaches you about yourself as you get older

 

[Flying Crane]

Old CMA saying, external goes to internal and internal goes to external, basically once you leanr one you need to learn the other and this is not a quick process. To learn a style, any style, takes a lifetime and part of that learning is learning is what it teaches you about yourself as you get older

yes, and as you implied it takes the right teacher to give you this guidance, and the right teacher is often a rare individual, hard to find. Keep searching, and until then do the best you can with what you have.

Another thought: my sifu is in his mid 70s, studied with his teachers back in the 1950s. He has said, he studied with his teachers for about a decade, and he LEARNED the system. He has said that when he would go back to Hong Kong and visit his teacher, he did not ask him to correct his practice. That's because his teacher knows that sifu learned it, knows it, understands it. Ultimately that is what we are all working on: you learn the system, understand what drives it, make it your own, and take it with you. The notion that you need to be under a teacher's guidance for the rest of your life is flawed. If you need to defend your life, sifu won't be there to help you. It is up to you, and that carries over into your own practice. That also is up to you.

this doesn't mean that you stop "learning" and improving. I know that my sifu has continued to develop his own understanding over the decades. My sihing, who have been with him for decades, have told me that how we practice now is quite different from how they practiced 20 or 30 years ago. This reflects sifu's changing comprehension of it all.

Sifu has said to us, "some things I cannot explain completely or perfectly. I can only get close, and YOU need to figure it out for yourself, or you will never understand it". I think there's a lot of that in the martial arts, and as Elder has pointed out, time alone working on your stuff is tremendously important. When you are a beginner, I think it is more important to be in class more often, tho even then I think it's important to spend your own time practicing alone. As you advance, I think gradually it becomes more important to spend your time alone to work on your stuff, and time spent in class, while still important, becomes less important than it was.

 

[Xue Sheng]

yes, and as you implied it takes the right teacher to give you this guidance, and the right teacher is often a rare individual, hard to find. Keep searching, and until then do the best you can with what you have.

Another thought: my sifu is in his mid 70s, studied with his teachers back in the 1950s. He has said, he studied with his teachers for about a decade, and he LEARNED the system. He has said that when he would go back to Hong Kong and visit his teacher, he did not ask him to correct his practice. That's because his teacher knows that sifu learned it, knows it, and understands it. Ultimately that is what we are all working on: you learn the system, understand what drives it, make it your own, and take it with you. The notion that you need to be under a teacher's guidance for the rest of your life is flawed. If you need to defend your life, sifu won't be there to help you. It is up to you, and that carries over into your own practice. That also is up to you.

My sifu (also in his 70s) trained with his sifu for about a decade in the 50s as well and was given permission by his sifu to teach and taught in Thailand in the late 50s and then the US from about 1960 until today. But has seen a major change in students over the years from those that truly want to learn the style to those that just want the dance. But I do not think this story is uncommon for a lot of the old school CMA guys and even more so for the Taiji guys like my sifu. But you are right; ultimately it is up to you

this doesn't mean that you stop "learning" and improving. I know that my sifu has continued to develop his own understanding over the decades. My sihing, who have been with him for decades, have told me that how we practice now is quite different from how they practiced 20 or 30 years ago. This reflects sifu's changing comprehension of it all.

Sifu has said to us, "some things I cannot explain completely or perfectly. I can only get close, and YOU need to figure it out for yourself, or you will never understand it". I think there's a lot of that in the martial arts, and as Elder has pointed out, time alone working on your stuff is tremendously important. When you are a beginner, I think it is more important to be in class more often, tho even then I think it's important to spend your own time practicing alone. As you advance, I think gradually it becomes more important to spend your time alone to work on your stuff, and time spent in class, while still important, becomes less important than it was.

There are a lot of things in CMA that you need to figure out on your own because no matter how skilled your sifu is he is not you. His students are taller, shorter, and heavier. Lighter, more flexible or less flexible than him. No two people are alike therefore it all comes down to the student taking what he/she has learned and making it their own. Another thing I see that becomes an issue in CMA classes with an old school sifu. Patience, students do not have the patience these days and they want whatever form or application they want when they want it and if they don’t get it they get upset, leave or declare the sifu does not know. It may be in some cases the sifu does not know but in many with the old school types, they know what the student is ready to learn better than the student does and if the student would take the time to learn what the sifu is trying to teach them they would eventually get to what they wanted and be much better at it than they would have been when they were demanding it.

 

[Flying Crane]

My sifu (also in his 70s) trained with his sifu for about a decade in the 50s as well and was given permission by his sifu to teach and taught in Thailand in the late 50s and then the US from about 1960 until today. But has seen a major change in students over the years from those that truly want to learn the style to those that just want the dance. But I do not think this story is uncommon for a lot of the old school CMA guys and even more so for the Taiji guys like my sifu. But you are right; ultimately it is up to you



There are a lot of things in CMA that you need to figure out on your own because no matter how skilled your sifu is he is not you. His students are taller, shorter, and heavier. Lighter, more flexible or less flexible than him. No two people are alike therefore it all comes down to the student taking what he/she has learned and making it their own. Another thing I see that becomes an issue in CMA classes with an old school sifu. Patience, students do not have the patience these days and they want whatever form or application they want when they want it and if they don’t get it they get upset, leave or declare the sifu does not know. It may be in some cases the sifu does not know but in many with the old school types, they know what the student is ready to learn better than the student does and if the student would take the time to learn what the sifu is trying to teach them they would eventually get to what they wanted and be much better at it than they would have been when they were demanding it.

and many people simply never get it, no matter how long they stay.

 

[punisher73]

Very interesting topic. I agree with Michael and Xue's perspectives from the CMA's. I think we are all in agreement that the learning never stops. But, I think for some people their journey changes perspectives and what motivated them to start their journey isn't always where they are at later on.

With my current instructor, I could literally spend the rest of my life learning from him and always get new perspectives and insights on the material I know. One of the signs of a great instructor is giving you the faith in yourself to start experiencing the art for yourself and gently guiding you along the way so you don't wander to far off the path. I have always liked the translation of "Sensei" as "one who came before". It symbolizes (at least to me) a type of mentorship relationship and someone who does care about your journey and will share how their journey went and help you avoid pitfalls and wrong turns, because they have already been there and done that.

 

[Ken Morgan]

No, it never stops.

 

[K-man]

I think Xue and FC have said it beautifully. We all will probably outgrow a teacher or two, unless we are fortunate to start with the best. Then, even with the best of teachers, we still need to have time away teaching, to develop and consolidate our knowledge.

But the old CMA saying, quoted by Xue, caught my eye. Going from 'external' to 'internal'. That is my current quest. Internal can't be taught as it is intangible. It must be developed. A teacher here can only lead you in the right direction. Great insight Xue. Thank you. :asian:

 

[WCman1976]

I agree that you might reach a point where you can't learn from the same teacher. However, there is another question I can think of: is it possible that there is a point where you CANNOT get better, and you train simply to maintain the highest level of skill you can achieve?

I always relate martial arts to OTHER art forms I know. For example, with guitar playing, I have been at it for years and I am STILL nowhere near as good as Hendrix, Van Halen, Vaugahan, and so on. No amount of practice would ever get me to their level.

But then again, when it comes to writing, I feel like my stories have improved over time. Strange. The only difference I can see is that writing involves the mind whereas wing chun and guitar involve the body. (I know some people who might be inclined to say guitar involves mind AND body because you need to know music theory, or at least how to play in key, but I think guitar playing is more physical than mental because all the music theory in the world won't help if you just can't get your fingers to move the way they need to!)

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree that you might reach a point where you can't learn from the same teacher. However, there is another question I can think of: is it possible that there is a point where you CANNOT get better, and you train simply to maintain the highest level of skill you can achieve?

I always relate martial arts to OTHER art forms I know. For example, with guitar playing, I have been at it for years and I am STILL nowhere near as good as Hendrix, Van Halen, Vaugahan, and so on. No amount of practice would ever get me to their level.

But then again, when it comes to writing, I feel like my stories have improved over time. Strange. The only difference I can see is that writing involves the mind whereas wing chun and guitar involve the body. (I know some people who might be inclined to say guitar involves mind AND body because you need to know music theory, or at least how to play in key, but I think guitar playing is more physical than mental because all the music theory in the world won't help if you just can't get your fingers to move the way they need to!)

actually interesting points and I will say that martial arts are not for everyone. Some people simply lack the knack for it and will never be better than mediocre, or even lousy. that's just the way it is. Like anything, like guitar, like science, like auto mechanics, some people are just able to thrive and progress above all the rest, while others just are not able. That's life.

 

[chinto]

simply put, NO the learning NEVER STOPS. That does not mean that you may not look at some other instructor or even style that might give you a completely different perspective on what you already know! you may find that say Aikido has you seeing things that you did not in your Karate kata... or Kung fu might find that they see something they never did in their kung fu style taking some jujitsu or perhaps kali or Karate. but either way the learning stops only when you die, or if you are somehow mentally damaged badly.

 

[jks9199]

There are several things going on here...

Learning should never stop. Learning from a particular source may stop -- but doesn't necessarily have to.

Some teachers simply reach a limit of their knowledge. An honest teacher, in a case like that, will send you on to someone else, or at least make it clear that all he can do from that point on is help you practice. He may even seek out more knowledge himself, and bring the student along. A dishonest teacher? They'll come up with excuses to keep you around. Especially if you're paying him...

Some students reach a limit of what they can learn. This may be physical, it may be intellectual, or it may simply be interest and willingness to learn and practice. How a teacher handles this depends on the student's attitude. Sometimes, the student may be happy where they stand, and simply continue to train and practice. If the student's not happy -- then the teacher has to handle this very carefully, or the student will become frustrated.