does karate include grappling

[dvcochran]

I would like to point out that we have been talking about karate as if its a homogeneous entity, and its not. In my experience styles like Shotokan have very little "grappling" (if we can agree to use that term) and the Naha styles have more and I would say Uechi ryu has more than that..depending on your teacher.

I am not considering Karate as a homogenous. This is why I have made the comments about grappling in regards to Karate.
I have limited experience in pure Karate but a modest amount in Shotokan. I agree with you on there being little grappling in Shotokan.
Like I said, there is a lot to talk about on this question. Clarifying as you did that there are several derivatives is a very good point.
I am certainly not taking sides with anyone in regards to this thread. I have simply done what everyone else has and cited what I know from my own experience.

 

[Hanzou]

I'll have to disagree with you on that. Grappling is grappling: grabbing, pushing, pulling, twisting, holding, lifting, off-balancing, sweeping, throwing, pinning, locking, breaking grips, pretty much anything aside from striking where you are attempting to control another person's body with your own is grappling. That's the definition of the word. It's not just modern sophisticated submission grappling. Heck, a completely untrained person grabbing someone in a headlock or shaking them by their lapels is grappling. Maybe not very skilled grappling, but grappling nonetheless. (Just like an untrained person swinging a wild haymaker is striking, even though it's certainly not skilled boxing.)

Now if you want to argue that the grappling found in karate is generally much more limited and rudimentary than what you'll find in a dedicated grappling art like wrestling or BJJ, then we have no argument.

I'd compare it to the striking found in classic old-school Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. It isn't anywhere near the level of the striking you would find in boxing or Muay Thai, but it's definitely there. Watch the footage of the old Gracie fights. They all used striking - kicks, punches, elbows, headbutts. It wasn't very advanced, but it served the purpose of helping to set up their grappling objectives. In the same way, the rudimentary grappling found in most karate styles was primarily intended to help land their strikes effectively.

Well again, it’s like striking in Judo or Bjj. Yeah you can say there’s striking in both of those arts, but more than likely you’re not going to learn any. I will say that what works in BJJ’s favor is that the striking present tends to be opportunistic striking, where you’re punching your opponent in the face and it’s effective because you’re in such a dominant position.

I was taught the 9 throws of Shotokan. I know we can get into technicalities all day, but I really can’t in good faith consider any of those techniques viable grappling. To me (and this is my opinion) if you’re saying your art contains an aspect like striking or grappling, that aspect should be competitive with other forms of it. The 9 throws of Shotokan are archaic silliness that will get you punched in the face or worse. It’s just like the “striking” in Judo kata. Yeah it’s there, and that’s about it.

 

[dvcochran]

Well again, it’s like striking in Judo or Bjj. Yeah you can say there’s striking in both of those arts, but more than likely you’re not going to learn any. I will say that what works in BJJ’s favor is that the striking present tends to be opportunistic striking, where you’re punching your opponent in the face and it’s effective because you’re in such a dominant position.

I was taught the 9 throws of Shotokan. I know we can get into technicalities all day, but I really can’t in good faith consider any of those techniques viable grappling. To me (and this is my opinion) if you’re saying your art contains an aspect like striking or grappling, that aspect should be competitive with other forms of it. The 9 throws of Shotokan are archaic silliness that will get you punched in the face or worse. It’s just like the “striking” in Judo kata. Yeah it’s there, and that’s about it.

I am going off of my bad memory but as I recall the follow up to the throws is basically non-existent. I feel like it is in that post throw area where people would think of it as effective grappling.
I agree the 'throwing' would be grappling but I still feel it is different, at least in context.

 

[Hanzou]

I am going off of my bad memory but as I recall the follow up to the throws is basically non-existent. I feel like it is in that post throw area where people would think of it as effective grappling.
I agree the 'throwing' would be grappling but I still feel it is different, at least in context.

No, there is no follow-up (outside of maybe a punch), and if we're being really honest about it, the vast majority of dojos out there are barely going to teach them (or not teach them at all). However, even if your students were taught this on a regular basis, the techniques in of themselves are so archaic that they border on pointless.

Here's an example of it;

Not exactly what I was taught, but its very close.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No, there is no follow-up (outside of maybe a punch), and if we're being really honest about it, the vast majority of dojos out there are barely going to teach them (or not teach them at all). However, even if your students were taught this on a regular basis, the techniques in of themselves are so archaic that they border on pointless.

Here's an example of it;

Not exactly what I was taught, but its very close.

Those are close enough to actual throws though, that if they trained them with resistance they'd figure out what they're actually supposed to do. So what that tells me is in that style the techniques were at some point there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does karate include grappling?

If you learn hip throw in your Karate system, but you have never learned how to counter a hip throw in your Karate system, does your Karate system have throwing?

If you learn single leg in your Karate system, when you apply single leg, your opponent steps back, you don't know how to change your single leg into another throw, does your Karate system have throwing?

IMO, a single throwing technique doesn't count. It should also include:

- counter to that throw.
- counter to a counter of that throw (combo).
- ...

 

[Hanzou]

Those are close enough to actual throws though, that if they trained them with resistance they'd figure out what they're actually supposed to do. So what that tells me is in that style the techniques were at some point there.

Ehhhh...... Which ones in particular? I mean, I can see the clothesline and trip having some applications, but it’s based on your opponent overextending their body (via Reverse Punching) to the point where they’re off balance.

In fact that’s the general problem with the entire set; it’s entirely based on you fighting someone who is also using karate. And not just any karate, but the type of karate you’d see in kata; with the deep stances, overextended punching, and the chambered off hand. Hence why I said it was archaic. A boxer, or street fighter would knock your block off if you tried any of that silliness.

So like I said, there’s no grappling in Shotokan. There’s some funny business that Funakoshi pulled out of his butt about 100 years ago, but it ain’t worth your time. If you want to learn grappling you’re better off learning some Judo or Bjj and mix it with your Shotokan training.

 

[punisher73]

Funakoshi removed most of the grappling applications from his version of karate (Shotokan). For example, in Wansu kata there is a throw that is non-existant in the Shotokan version of Empi (it has some jumping turning move in it).

So, looking at just one style of karate that states that it removed a bunch of stuff to make it safe for school children is really an inaccurate argument as a whole and pointing to that and saying Shotokan doesn't have it is something we can agree on. The OP was asking if grappling was in karate, and as it has been pointed out, "yes" there is grappling in the original karate.

People keep talking about the striking in Judo. I will have to find the old article from one of the old Japanese students talking about how "back in the day" they used to get in fights and would try to see if they could end it with one strike. So, at one time, strikes were trained as a part of Judo not just "in there". The same could be said of the grappling of karate. Just because most don't train it now a days doesn't mean that it wasn't trained and effective at one point.

I also don't think that anyone is really arguing that anyone who specializes in a subset (grappling/striking) will be better at that subset than someone who doesn't train as much.

 

[Hanzou]

Funakoshi removed most of the grappling applications from his version of karate (Shotokan). For example, in Wansu kata there is a throw that is non-existant in the Shotokan version of Empi (it has some jumping turning move in it).

So, looking at just one style of karate that states that it removed a bunch of stuff to make it safe for school children is really an inaccurate argument as a whole and pointing to that and saying Shotokan doesn't have it is something we can agree on. The OP was asking if grappling was in karate, and as it has been pointed out, "yes" there is grappling in the original karate.

People keep talking about the striking in Judo. I will have to find the old article from one of the old Japanese students talking about how "back in the day" they used to get in fights and would try to see if they could end it with one strike. So, at one time, strikes were trained as a part of Judo not just "in there". The same could be said of the grappling of karate. Just because most don't train it now a days doesn't mean that it wasn't trained and effective at one point.

I also don't think that anyone is really arguing that anyone who specializes in a subset (grappling/striking) will be better at that subset than someone who doesn't train as much.

But isn't the point of this topic to discuss what's being taught in dojos TODAY, not what was taught in Japan in the 1920s and 1930s, or in Okinawa during the Meiji period? If someone is asking if Karate (in this case Shotokan) has grappling or Judo has striking, is it really honest to say that they do? Is that student going to learn how to grapple or strike in those styles? I gotta say the answer to that is a resounding no.

I'm also not too keen on the idea of learning grappling from a kata. Again, it's there, but are you really going to develop the proficiency necessary to execute that technique if you're pretty much just learning it from a kata? Especially when the technique you're learning is archaic and not really applicable to actual fighting principles.

 

[MartialMasterTeddy]

I am not considering Karate as a homogenous. This is why I have made the comments about grappling in regards to Karate.
I have limited experience in pure Karate but a modest amount in Shotokan. I agree with you on there being little grappling in Shotokan.
Like I said, there is a lot to talk about on this question. Clarifying as you did that there are several derivatives is a very good point.
I am certainly not taking sides with anyone in regards to this thread. I have simply done what everyone else has and cited what I know from my own experience.

This serves a need very kindly. After grappling is removed from Karatedo, the Practioner must look for a JJJ or BJJ school. If they don't, they might get hurt in a Street Fight and lose their Life. Also, not from the action but inaction by walking away wisely or Street Smarts which one.

 

[jobo]

But isn't the point of this topic to discuss what's being taught in dojos TODAY, not what was taught in Japan in the 1920s and 1930s, or in Okinawa during the Meiji period? If someone is asking if Karate (in this case Shotokan) has grappling or Judo has striking, is it really honest to say that they do? Is that student going to learn how to grapple or strike in those styles? I gotta say the answer to that is a resounding no.

I'm also not too keen on the idea of learning grappling from a kata. Again, it's there, but are you really going to develop the proficiency necessary to execute that technique if you're pretty much just learning it from a kata? Especially when the technique you're learning is archaic and not really applicable to actual fighting principles.

you have a point, if you want to dismiss some syles as being grapling free, thats ok, but your saying karate as a whole doesnt, and it may be more accurate to say its rare,

your also be very exact about what you think grappling is and its your right to have that view, but others may have an opinion, that doesnt mean it has to be bjj to count

 

[Hanzou]

This serves a need very kindly. After grappling is removed from Karatedo, the Practioner must look for a JJJ or BJJ school. If they don't, they might get hurt in a Street Fight and lose their Life. Also, not from the action but inaction by walking away wisely or Street Smarts which one.

Exactly. When you state that there is grappling in Karate, you're making the implication that you can learn grappling on the level of actual grappling systems, which is simply not true. Frankly it's a marketing ploy that people should really be aware of.

 

[MartialMasterTeddy]

Demonizing hard working Japanese and Americans for not looking into a Grappling ONLY school is not nice. Actually, Martial Philosopher Artists are quite nice and cool people.

Karate should be taught has a complete Form not style. That is The #1 Rule at present.

 

[Hanzou]

you have a point, if you want to dismiss some syles as being grapling free, thats ok, but your saying karate as a whole doesnt, and it may be more accurate to say its rare,

your also be very exact about what you think grappling is and its your right to have that view, but others may have an opinion, that doesnt mean it has to be bjj to count

I'll just say that if you're learning grappling from a kata, then yeah your style is grappling free. You're never going to build the proficiency necessary to pull off that technique, even if the kata is expressing the technique properly.

And yes, that same principle applies to Judo striking as well. People really need to get out of the mindset that Asian guys from centuries ago were fighting masters. A lot of the legends and myths of incredible warriors killing armed samurai with their bare hands, or beating armies of thugs with their fingernails are pure fiction

 

[jobo]

Exactly. When you state that there is grappling in Karate, you're making the implication that you can learn grappling on the level of actual grappling systems, which is simply not true. Frankly it's a marketing ploy that people should really be aware of.

i dont think that implication is there, it has to stand on its own merits, either there is grappeling that will be effective or there is not, it doesnt require any comparison to make that statment

 

[Hanzou]

Demonizing hard working Japanese and Americans for not looking into a Grappling ONLY school is not nice. Actually, Martial Philosopher Artists are quite nice and cool people.

Karate should be taught has a complete Form not style. That is The #1 Rule at present.

Who's demonizing? I'm simply saying if you want to learn grappling, go actually learn grappling from people who know what they're doing. The same applies for people in grappling arts who want to learn striking, go to the actual schools where they're teaching striking.

i dont think that implication is there, it has to stand on its own merits, either there is grappeling that will be effective or there is not, it doesnt require any comparison to make that statment

Except that isn't how it really works. What happens is people drink the kool-aid and believe that "Funakoshi's 9 throws" is effective stuff and if they just meditate long enough they can make it work. You know it doesn't work by comparing it to actual functioning grappling systems because those systems set the standard.

 

[jobo]

I'll just say that if you're learning grappling from a kata, then yeah your style is grappling free. You're never going to build the proficiency necessary to pull off that technique, even if the kata is expressing the technique properly.

And yes, that same principle applies to Judo striking as well. People really need to get out of the mindset that Asian guys from centuries ago were fighting masters. A lot of the legends and myths of incredible warriors killing armed samurai with their bare hands, or beating armies of thugs with their fingernails are pure fiction

you cant learn very much from a kata, except perhaps dancing,

is this a strawman your attempting to introduce i wonder?

 

[MartialMasterTeddy]

Ehhhh...... Which ones in particular? I mean, I can see the clothesline and trip having some applications, but it’s based on your opponent overextending their body (via Reverse Punching) to the point where they’re off balance.

In fact that’s the general problem with the entire set; it’s entirely based on you fighting someone who is also using karate. And not just any karate, but the type of karate you’d see in kata; with the deep stances, overextended punching, and the chambered off hand. Hence why I said it was archaic. A boxer, or street fighter would knock your block off if you tried any of that silliness.

So like I said, there’s no grappling in Shotokan. There’s some funny business that Funakoshi pulled out of his butt about 100 years ago, but it ain’t worth your time. If you want to learn grappling you’re better off learning some Judo or Bjj and mix it with your Shotokan training.

Your implicit assertion that Judo and even Aikido is a grappling may be wee bit helter-skelter to some.

 

[Hanzou]

Your implicit assertion that Judo and even Aikido is a grappling may be wee bit helter-skelter to some.

Aikido could be considered borderline (though I would personally include it), but Judo is definitely a grappling system.

 

[MartialMasterTeddy]

In a different Era, there is Grappling taught in Karatedo schools, and after school, they go around taunting that Karate is Superior Path to Wing Chun.