Does anyone train gun / knife retention & use from the ground?

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Likewise, you are confronted by an armed hoodlum, you tackle him to the ground, and now you are the one trying to avoid being shot or stabbed, and to take away the weapon?

Just curious. I'm not sure I've seen such discussion or training before.

What I have seen are what we in karate might call 'one step' drills. The bad guy does this, you do that. You step thusly, block as such, grasp, twist, stab, slash, etc. But what happens when it all goes south and you end up in a heap on the ground? The BJJ guys have many escapes and ways to avoid being taken down, etc. But it all changes when one hand is holding a weapon, edged or noisy, or your enemy is.

Is there training out there for that?

 

[CB Jones]

We did in the Academy, until one cadet had his trigger finger dislocated and another broke his collarbone.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Bill, we do this a lot in IRT. Almost all of us carry all the time so retention skills are essential.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hey Bill, we do this a lot in IRT. Almost all of us carry all the time so retention skills are essential.

OK, so for example: You're on the ground, you have a knife in your dominant hand, the bad guy is on top of you pinning your knife hand to the ground and trying to pry it out of your hand without being cut himself. You need to keep control of the weapon, use it to defend yourself, and get up off the ground. Is this the sort of thing you do in IRT? If so, groovy!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes that is one way we would work on with retention of a tool. Another might be that we have a firearm on our hip, appendix, etc. and the attacker become aware of it on the ground and they then try to take it. From there we would try to apply pressure on the firearm keeping it in the holster while improving our position so that we can get up and create space or draw and use it if needed/warranted. Just one example as there are a lot of different retention drills you can do.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Awesome, thanks guys! Question answered!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

OK, so for example: You're on the ground, you have a knife in your dominant hand, the bad guy is on top of you pinning your knife hand to the ground and trying to pry it out of your hand without being cut himself. You need to keep control of the weapon, use it to defend yourself, and get up off the ground. Is this the sort of thing you do in IRT? If so, groovy!

One thing to remember is that your foundation for addressing this scenario is fundamental grappling skills. Adding the weapon to the equation affects your tactical options, but the skills necessary for protecting yourself from the bottom, escaping your opponent's control of your knife hand, and getting to your feet are all grappling fundamentals.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally, I like where the Gracie's have evolved too with their system for LEO's. I know that initially it left a lot to be desired but they have improved quite a bit.

In the Keith Owen video I would be curious if he was addressing only a triple retention holster situation. If not and the individual tried the first technique without a triple holster the bad guy might have the weapon during the sweep, etc. Even with triple retention it is better to immediately put a hand on the firearm with downward pressure to retain it or a grip over the opponents hand with downward pressure to retain it then move into a sweep.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

One thing to remember is that your foundation for addressing this scenario is fundamental grappling skills. Adding the weapon to the equation affects your tactical options, but the skills necessary for protecting yourself from the bottom, escaping your opponent's control of your knife hand, and getting to your feet are all grappling fundamentals.

Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent? Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent? Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?

That's what I meant about affecting the tactical options. The weapon may affect the priorities for both you and the attacker. However the underlying skill set for achieving those priorities is the same.

BTW - the attacker may be more focused on disarming you than bashing your head in, but you can't afford to assume that. In the situation you describe, you need to protect yourself from being hit and protect yourself from being disarmed and potentially prevent the attacker from deploying his own weapon and escape the controlled position and get to your feet.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Personally, I like where the Gracie's have evolved too with their system for LEO's. I know that initially it left a lot to be desired but they have improved quite a bit.

It's my impression that they did a lot of listening and learning from the LEOs they were working with, which is bound to improve the curriculum.

In the Keith Owen video I would be curious if he was addressing only a triple retention holster situation. If not and the individual tried the first technique without a triple holster the bad guy might have the weapon during the sweep, etc. Even with triple retention it is better to immediately put a hand on the firearm with downward pressure to retain it or a grip over the opponents hand with downward pressure to retain it then move into a sweep.

It's probably harder to address all the details when you don't have a training weapon or holster to work with. It looks like that particular video may have been in response to a question at a seminar which wasn't focused on weapon issues.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. jelly wrestlers do it. When you are trying to get a sweatband off another persons wrist.

 

[drop bear]

double post.

 

[drop bear]

Would you not think that having a weapon you need to defend in one hand would change the dynamics to some extent? Especially given that the attacker would presumably be focused on taking away the weapon from you as opposed to beating your brains out on the ground, etc?

The better grappler still generally wins.

 

[Danny T]

Yes we do.
From standing, kneeling, on the ground on top and from the bottom.
Firearms, bladed weapons, impact objects. And vs multiple opponent's who have multiple weapons.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The better grappler still generally wins.

Not always, particularly if the better grappler has never worked with weapons and weapon retention skills. An example would be an LEO versus someone trained in MMA. My money in most incidents is going to be on the LEO who trains specifically for the context of utilizing his weapons/tools. Now, if he doesn't train or his department is lax then that is a training issue. Still, the point being made and I have actually worked with world class grappling instructors who did not take into account weapons/tools coming into the mix. There was a gigantic hole in their training for personal protection and some of the grapping skills they utilized left them very vulnerable against an opponent drawing a knife or firearm. This is what Tony and I were talking about above in regards to the Gracie's improving their training for LEO"s. Initially they came at it from a straight up jiujitsu perspective and it did not address the needs and concerns of LEO officer wearing a gun belt, with a handgun, taser, handcuffs, flashlight, etc. What they initially taught had a lot of dangerous material in it. They have improved as Tony mentioned by listening to officers and making corrections. Still, they have a ways to go even now as one of the videos showed them doing and armbar which would be a no no for an officer.

 

[DanT]

I'm not talking about disarming drills, or patterns of attack/defense in the classical sense.

I'm talking about someone tries to mug you, you draw your concealed weapon, you get tacked to the ground, and now you are fighting for your life with a gun or knife in one hand, trying to keep it from being taken from you and regaining your feet and/or using the weapon effectively whilst so engaged?

Likewise, you are confronted by an armed hoodlum, you tackle him to the ground, and now you are the one trying to avoid being shot or stabbed, and to take away the weapon?

Just curious. I'm not sure I've seen such discussion or training before.

What I have seen are what we in karate might call 'one step' drills. The bad guy does this, you do that. You step thusly, block as such, grasp, twist, stab, slash, etc. But what happens when it all goes south and you end up in a heap on the ground? The BJJ guys have many escapes and ways to avoid being taken down, etc. But it all changes when one hand is holding a weapon, edged or noisy, or your enemy is.

Is there training out there for that?

Yes, you just simulate it as much as possible as a sparring scenario with equipment.

 

[drop bear]

Not always, particularly if the better grappler has never worked with weapons and weapon retention skills. An example would be an LEO versus someone trained in MMA. My money in most incidents is going to be on the LEO who trains specifically for the context of utilizing his weapons/tools. Now, if he doesn't train or his department is lax then that is a training issue. Still, the point being made and I have actually worked with world class grappling instructors who did not take into account weapons/tools coming into the mix. There was a gigantic hole in their training for personal protection and some of the grapping skills they utilized left them very vulnerable against an opponent drawing a knife or firearm. This is what Tony and I were talking about above in regards to the Gracie's improving their training for LEO"s. Initially they came at it from a straight up jiujitsu perspective and it did not address the needs and concerns of LEO officer wearing a gun belt, with a handgun, taser, handcuffs, flashlight, etc. What they initially taught had a lot of dangerous material in it. They have improved as Tony mentioned by listening to officers and making corrections. Still, they have a ways to go even now as one of the videos showed them doing and armbar which would be a no no for an officer.

The tool box is there. they just need to choose the right tool for the job.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes and I would agree that BJJ as a base gives you a lot of options when grappling. The problem is that probably most people who grapple never work with weapons being involved. My experience with very advanced grapplers is that they miss the little cues before a weapon will be introduced. Sure they have skills, sure those skills can translate but if they translate to late during a violent encounter then they probably will be killed. Most BJJ or grappling systems simply do not address weapon retention and weapon use on the ground.