Do you need to be able to do push-up and be strong in order to practice Wing Chun?

[Fungus]

Generally speaking, attackers aren't going to be fat and out of shape. That would be as close to literally "bringing a knife to gunfight" as you can possibly get without actually being literal.

So that brings us the interesting question! What to do for someone that is a priori not necessarily superior in training or physical condition than the likely attacker?

Avoidance or "no be there" as Mr Miyagi said is the first line of "defense".

But what when you can't avoid risky areas completely? Any jedi tricks?

 

[Rich Parsons]

So that brings us the interesting question! What to do for someone that is a priori not necessarily superior in training or physical condition than the likely attacker?

Avoidance or "no be there" as Mr Miyagi said is the first line of "defense".

But what when you can't avoid risky areas completely? Any jedi tricks?

Rich: "Hi, I don't have much in my wallet. * reaching for it * I would like to offer you a deal."
Blank stares from person holding the pistol
Rich Continues: "I would like to lease the bullet in your chamber from you for the next hour. I will give you all the money in my wallet. Just leave the bullet in the chamber, and I walk away. Then it is not theft, it is a business deal."
.
There are no magic words.
If they want something physical like property let them have it. Unless a family member is inside it.
Let them take the wallet. Take your shoes. Take you keys.
.
Experience helps with making quick decisions.
So practice getting mugged. Slowly reach for your wallet. Tell them you are reaching for it.
Tell them you will place it on the ground and leave.
.
It is all situational.

 

[Fungus]

Does it help the analysis helps if we catagorize the types of potential attackers?

An "opponent" in a MA competition, where there are rules, isn't what we talke about here so what else...

1. Someone wants to rob you?
a) They know you (and your skills, or lack of skills?)
b) unknown predator not knowing the victim

2. Someone looking for a thrill, or to show off in front of others, looking for a reason to pick a fight.

3. Getting into an argument about something that happened (could be anything, accidents etc) with someone that refuses to deescalate the situation.
a) They know you (and your skills, or lack of skills?)
b) they do not know you

4. Someoe that knows you, or of you, and are specifically targeting you for whatever reasons. Could be a version of 1a, but does not have to be motivated as robbery.

5. Anything else??

 

[Fungus]

If they want something physical like property let them have it. Unless a family member is inside it.

The "interesting" situations are the ones where you someone can't or find it very hard to just avoid or go away.

Then I assume it comes down to psychology or messing with your attackers head, just as much as it is about striking or kicking techniques. But I think these things, "manipulating" your opponent, or setting things up in context, is also part of MA right? These things go beyond physical conditioning.

I just feel that maybe there is more answers to the OT, than simlpy loosing weight or getting fit.
Or is there not?

 

[Hot Lunch]

So that brings us the interesting question! What to do for someone that is a priori not necessarily superior in training or physical condition than the likely attacker?

Avoidance or "no be there" as Mr Miyagi said is the first line of "defense".

But what when you can't avoid risky areas completely? Any jedi tricks?

What were you doing yourself to get by in these situations before you started training in martial arts? What is any other average person doing?

This is why many of us started training martial arts in the first place.

There are two reasons I suggested hitting the gym to the OP in the first place:

1. Even without martial arts training, he'll better able to defend himself due to greater physical strength and cardiovascular endurance.

2. The more physically fit you are, the less of a target you become. This is arguably better than "no be there," because you become better able to exercise your right to freedom of movement.

If he goes the "martial arts training only" route - let's say, for the sake of argument - that his lack of physical strength and cardiovascular endurance does not hinder his ability to use his training: he's still a target because of his lack of physical fitness, and he's going to be doing a lot more fighting than someone who IS physically fit.

 

[Fungus]

There are two reasons I suggested hitting the gym to the OP in the first place:

1. Even without martial arts training, he'll better able to defend himself due to greater physical strength and cardiovascular endurance.

2. The more physically fit you are, the less of a target you become. This is arguably better than "no be there," because you become better able to exercise your right to freedom of movement.

If he goes the "martial arts training only" route - let's say, for the sake of argument - that his lack of physical strength and cardiovascular endurance does not hinder his ability to use his training: he's still a target because of his lack of physical fitness, and he's going to be doing a lot more fighting than someone who IS physically fit.

Getting in shape is obviously not a bad advice. You are right of course. I was trying to see things positively, by seeing complementary workings, that may be something to build confidence in those that aren't going to be very fit soon.

Going from say extremely overweight, maybe with heart condition to fit isn't easy, so meanwhile, some mental strenght from other workings might help cope with unease and anxiety of the situation?

Confidence itself also helps in a fight. Feeling like you are the worst of all, is not going to help I think. This was really my point. I think part of combat psychology is about challence and threat, and focus as well, so reading up on this, may increase motivation and confidence.

"Challenge and threat states predict future performance; however, no research has examined their immediate effect on motor task performance
....
The challenge group performed more accurately, reported more favorable emotions, and display"

The effect of challenge and threat states on performance: An examination of potential mechanisms

Challenge and threat states predict future performance; however, no research has examined their immediate effect on motor task performance. The present study examined the effect of challenge and threat states on golf putting performance and several possible ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

If you try to go into the MA world, and only feel that your odds are the worst, then motivation for the long journey will not be easier, as the challenge may feel impossible, and this kills motivation.

 

[Fungus]

I have payed more interest into psychology more simply because of my own limitations. But we may all have different limitations!

For example have adopted an energy saving strategy in fighting classes that somehow works. I noticed that my peers which are in FAR more cardiovascular shape than me, appear MORE fatigued after 1.5 hour of 50 matches, and i figured that I am able to rest in between strikes more than they do, I have simple HAD to learn todo it. They are more used to be able to go 100%.

My speed is also inferior to those that are 30 years younger, does that mean i can't beatr them? I think not. I just have to play a different "game". This strategy has intrigued me and currently my own development is largelt centered around this now as a kyokushin beginner. It also occured to me that how my own appearance influence the behaviour also of higher ranks in the fight. So there is alot more to fighting that just fitness and technique. That can to a small part at leat compensate for limtations.

I find this fascinating and sympaphatise with anyone that strat and thinkg they cant make it. Maybe you just need to walk a different path, and find another way. I did fight some very obese people and some of them were link a tank, the fat is in fact cushions to strikes. It is at least something to their advantage.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The "interesting" situations are the ones where you someone can't or find it very hard to just avoid or go away.

Then I assume it comes down to psychology or messing with your attackers head, just as much as it is about striking or kicking techniques. But I think these things, "manipulating" your opponent, or setting things up in context, is also part of MA right? These things go beyond physical conditioning.

I just feel that maybe there is more answers to the OT, than simlpy loosing weight or getting fit.
Or is there not?

I once said when violence was immanent.
I hope you have good health insurance because I know I do. I have Blue Cross and Blue Shield.

Of the four, three stopped and paused and realized, I was planning to give these younger punks everything I had. They all stepped back and then the fourth realized he was alone in the danger zone. He left calling me names and they went after easier targets.

Yes messing with them can help.
Yet, one has to have intent to carry through with the violence as well.
Note: It is impossible to dodge bullets. Blades are hard to avoid getting cut even by accident.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have payed more interest into psychology more simply because of my own limitations. But we may all have different limitations!

For example have adopted an energy saving strategy in fighting classes that somehow works. I noticed that my peers which are in FAR more cardiovascular shape than me, appear MORE fatigued after 1.5 hour of 50 matches, and i figured that I am able to rest in between strikes more than they do, I have simple HAD to learn todo it. They are more used to be able to go 100%.

My speed is also inferior to those that are 30 years younger, does that mean i can't beatr them? I think not. I just have to play a different "game". This strategy has intrigued me and currently my own development is largelt centered around this now as a kyokushin beginner. It also occured to me that how my own appearance influence the behaviour also of higher ranks in the fight. So there is alot more to fighting that just fitness and technique. That can to a small part at leat compensate for limtations.

I find this fascinating and sympaphatise with anyone that strat and thinkg they cant make it. Maybe you just need to walk a different path, and find another way. I did fight some very obese people and some of them were link a tank, the fat is in fact cushions to strikes. It is at least something to their advantage.

There is no doubt that inferior cardio and speed can be compensated for by having fighting smarts. Resting between techniques, staying loose, is key as you say. But to have time in between takes some skills. Controlling distance to keep him out of range and controlling the angles to keep him out of position will give the old guy more time to rest.

Not pressing the attack and relying more on counterattacks as well as having accuracy in your strikes means less techniques will be needed.

Coping with superior speed can be done by forcing the opponent to close the gap and luring him into attacking on a line/target of your choice. Your own hand position and timing also can have the effect of giving you greater speed. All of the above can be gained by experience and allow older martial artists to go up against younger fitter opponents. Of course, having speed and endurance as well never hurt.

 

[Fungus]

Coping with superior speed can be done by forcing the opponent to close the gap and luring him into attacking on a line/target of your choice.

As kyokushin is full contact, one thing I adjusted is: what to just take by tensing/adjusting body, and what to spend energy to avoid. This works only because I happend to be quite strong, so I take some more hits in return for saving energy - good trade for me, but it just just MY way of handling my issues.

One thing I learned is those that flood you with many FAST techniques, like a machine gun of strikes nad punches, rarely have as much power. It is simply very diffuclt for anyone to combined the fastest speed with maximum power. That would take some incredible physics, or maximum power outage that few can keep up with for more than a few seconds. [exception is anything hits to the head - then not much power is needed, so head is priority]

But those that are fast and maybe lighter in their body and find it EASIER to jump around a bit more and in return stay away from eating even moderate strikes, are of course doing the right thing for them to adjust their style that way.

 

[Cri70]

Generally speaking, attackers aren't going to be fat and out of shape. That would be as close to literally "bringing a knife to gunfight" as you can possibly get without actually being literal.


Yes, but bear in mind that those combat systems teach the most efficient way to use one's muscles. What they do not teach is avoiding the use of those muscles.

Yes of course, all with reason.

For karate (not the XX century "traditional" japanese stuff) most is done using bone structure, positioning and mechanical leverage on the joints, which does not require much muscle power at all - just a normal degree of mobility and strength. So long you can say keep your arm up, karate gives you a chance against a more fit but clueless attacker. Of course fitness and muscle help - especially stamina.. if you get puffing after 10 seconds, you soon won't be able to assume the positions you need to assume.

The difficulty of course is that for karate to work one must deeply "own" its principles and must be able to apply them in the heat of a confrontation - which requires creating mental and physical habits via long practice (and nowadays few teach these, and even if they do there's luckly far less chance to have to put them into practice, and even if you put them into practice you're risking to get blamed for excessive reaction). For someone who can't even contemplate taking a diet, it's not gonna be possible.

 

[Cri70]

So that brings us the interesting question! What to do for someone that is a priori not necessarily superior in training or physical condition than the likely attacker?

Avoidance or "no be there" as Mr Miyagi said is the first line of "defense".

But what when you can't avoid risky areas completely? Any jedi tricks?

No tricks.

Just understanding that in tricky situations all that matters is the balance of power. Belongings mean nothing. Ego means nothing. If you can do something, you do it. If you can't, and you do nothing - another day will come. If you can't do nothing, you give it your best shot. It's really scary stuff. That balance can be altered a bit in certain situations by your or your attacker's characteristics, but recognizing it is essential.

For the rest it all depends on the specific situation. What the attackers want. What mental state they are. Why picked you. If guns or blades are involved, your chances are very low anyway. If they want just material stuff, it's the easiest situation.

Luckily I haven't been in many such situations at all, but the few times I found myself in a spot, the people involved weren't mugging me -or wanting anything material - they were independently angry or cocky/insecure (having to show off to their friends, once engaged they won't back off since they don't have the maturity to back off), or I had stupidly instigated a confrontation, they were typically intoxicated with alcohol or drugs, and once I was asked for help by a woman who was being stalked by a guy high on coke (and it was very surreal, as I had just parked my car outside my fave cafe, on my way to have a cappuccino and croissant... as far a mental state as possible from any confrontation).

"Real" combat systems (for lack of a better world, meaning not fitness or competition-oriented), when well practiced and honed, will give you a chance to de-escalate situations quickly if need be and get hurt less than otherwise. But just a chance. Nothing makes you invincible, that's just in silly movies.

The "interesting" situations are the ones where you someone can't or find it very hard to just avoid or go away.

Then I assume it comes down to psychology or messing with your attackers head, just as much as it is about striking or kicking techniques. But I think these things, "manipulating" your opponent, or setting things up in context, is also part of MA right? These things go beyond physical conditioning.

I just feel that maybe there is more answers to the OT, than simlpy loosing weight or getting fit.
Or is there not?

I don't know. You can't control what others do and you can't control randomness, and most of life is randomness, way more we usually think. It gets philosophical, but for example one of the most consequential things in your life is where you are born, and you've got zero control on that.

You can control what you do and how you respond to situations and you can plan ahead and try to be prepared as best as you can, and live with the idea that it still can be absolutely not enough, usually by forgetting it most of the time, like we all do.

 

[Fungus]

No tricks.

I meant to put the question on the table, to hint for the OP the bigger toolbox. It's not ONLY about fitness, and if that is your major weakness then, hope is not out, instead tweak the other parameters.

I don't know. You can't control what others do and you can't control randomness, and most of life is randomness, way more we usually think. It gets philosophical, but for example one of the most consequential things in your life is where you are born, and you've got zero control on that.

You can control what you do and how you respond to situations and you can plan ahead

I agree, but this "philosophical insight" is important. Without this insight, one may keep asking the wrong questions.

So life and i think nature itself, is a game yes, we can not "control" as in deterministically rule the environment (where the opponent is) but we can influence it and indirectly partly control it, by the choice of our actions. The insight this brings is to stop seeking perfection or "foolproof" solutions, as they do not exist. Once you embrace this, it is still amazing how lawlike beahaviour still emerge. This applies also to nature itself.

So there is an element of gambling in fighting or combat as well, including risk analysis.

And applies to combat/security psychology I think there are enough parameters to have fun with even for someone that are unlikely to ever be as fit as bruce lee or as strong as Mike Tyson.

It also seems that everyone tends to utilize only a subset of their potential. It is sometime amazin to see for example how blind people has developed and exceptional skill in making inferences from sound, almost that seems superhuman.

 

[Cri70]

I meant to put the question on the table, to hint for the OP the bigger toolbox. It's not ONLY about fitness, and if that is your major weakness then, hope is not out, instead tweak the other parameters.

I agree, but this "philosophical insight" is important. Without this insight, one may keep asking the wrong questions.

So life and i think nature itself, is a game yes, we can not "control" as in deterministically rule the environment (where the opponent is) but we can influence it and indirectly partly control it, by the choice of our actions. The insight this brings is to stop seeking perfection or "foolproof" solutions, as they do not exist. Once you embrace this, it is still amazing how lawlike beahaviour still emerge. This applies also to nature itself.

So there is an element of gambling in fighting or combat as well, including risk analysis.

And applies to combat/security psychology I think there are enough parameters to have fun with even for someone that are unlikely to ever be as fit as bruce lee or as strong as Mike Tyson.

Yes, absolutely.

I used to do whitewater kayak for fun (in a very mild way, nothing exceptional), and I always thought a decent metaphor for life.. you're running down a huge river carried by enormous forces you can't possibly control and with uncharted random obstacles ahead, but thru your technique and understanding you have a degree of control on how to redirect things so that you stay afloat as much as possible. And sometimes there's moments of calm behind a big rock.

It also seems that everyone tends to utilize only a subset of their potential. It is sometime amazin to see for example how blind people has developed and exceptional skill in making inferences from sound, almost that seems superhuman.

The idea is easy: proper practice every day with good technique and intensity (whatever they are for the specific field you're looking at) and you'll be able to do wonders.

I got that quite early in life. The devil, (at least for me ), it's that there's so much other fun stuff to do in life that it's very hard to have that kind of continuous dedication that one must have.. unless you have an handicap such that you don't have a choice, like you say for the blind.

 

[Fungus]

I got that quite early in life. The devil, (at least for me ), it's that there's so much other fun stuff to do in life that it's very hard to have that kind of continuous dedication that one must have.. unless you have an handicap such that you don't have a choice, like you say for the blind.

Yes and disregarding differences between individuals, we all have a certain capacity to process information from our senses, this naturally will yield higher developments on the other senses if you take one out and train.

As a beginner, fighting with two arms and two legs is alot of processing todo for the brain. Of course the experienced, do alot from muscle memory with less cognitive load while performing techniques, then its easier. But it strikes me that sometimes we practice with only one arm or one leg, and then I noticed that the difference between ranks are lower. I can manage one arm reasonably well in a one handed fight, without just relying on acquired muscle reflexes, or at least almost as good as higher ranks. But when it comes to using all limbs in concert, the higher rankes outperform me. This is an interesting observeration, and suggests something interesting.

There is also research from where you do 2D stimiuli like on a screen, vs 3D stimuli in VR, where the "cognitive processing capacity" required to decode a 2D stimuili two 3D mentally, makes us "blind" to details in the world, that we DO wee when exposed to 3D. This is at least an indication as well of that our brain, fantastic as they are, are sometimes a bottleneck.

Sustained inattentional blindness in virtual reality and under conventional laboratory conditions - Virtual Reality

Virtual reality (VR) might increase the ecological validity of psychological studies as it allows submerging into real-life experiences under controlled laboratory conditions. We intended to provide empirical evidence for this claim at the example of the famous invisible gorilla paradigm (Simons...

link.springer.com

 

[Fungus]

If we can in MA construct like a DDoS attack somehow on your opponent, by mindtricks, their focus are locked up to something else than the fight.

We even had a practice on this in fighting class where we were instructed to make something "crazy" or "unexpected" to get the opponent to think about what we are doing, to make them loose focus. It was quite fun.

 

[Cri70]

But it strikes me that sometimes we practice with only one arm or one leg, and then I noticed that the difference between ranks are lower. I can manage one arm reasonably well in a one handed fight, without just relying on acquired muscle reflexes, or at least almost as good as higher ranks. But when it comes to using all limbs in concert, the higher rankes outperform me. This is an interesting observeration, and suggests something interesting.

Indeed it is. One of the general principles of karate is to use the limb that's nearest to the target to hit (or grab, or push etc) the target.

Where karate lives - i.e. at extremely close range - very often it will be the same hand/arm that's just done something else that attacks again, because it's the nearest one and it (and your body) is already in a position to "recoil" from the previous action.

The other arm it's typically used as a guard, using bone alignment and positioning to both shield and keep the opponent at bay, and disallow him to do much with any limb he may have free, and/or to sense the movement of the opponent. It's the "husband and wife hands" idea (and a great exercise I do is to attempt to keep contact with your partner while keeping your eyes closed.. karate is based much more on sensing by touch than by sight, because at close range, when you see it, it's already too late. Lots of the katas are good to practice closing your eyes after the initial entry)

By using that single-arm idea, speed is achieved not by athleticism and big muscles, but by training your mind to do the exact opposite of what the japanese art and its derivatives condition you to do, which is parry with a limb and then attack with the other. And of course practicing, practicing, practicing.

Whereas to do the japanese way effectively, you very much need strong, twitchy muscles, excellent sense of timing and the ability to maintain (or regain) the longer distance that allows you to use an inherently much slower movement (which is to say, very well trained leg muscles). Which makes perfect sense, since the japanese art was designed exactly to achieve that kind of fitness (and its modern practitioners are amazing athletes).

 

[Cri70]

If we can in MA construct like a DDoS attack somehow on your opponent, by mindtricks, their focus are locked up to something else than the fight.

We even had a practice on this in fighting class where we were instructed to make something "crazy" or "unexpected" to get the opponent to think about what we are doing, to make them loose focus. It was quite fun.

Yes! Another principle of karate is - if attacked by surprise, crash into your opponent at once, attempting to seize back the initiative. Without training, when faced with a threat, we tend to naturally retreat. But if someone starts swinging at you and you crash into them (which is invariably the first thing that happens in karate), they normally are quite surprised. Loads of kata, if not all, start exactly with various ways to do just that.

 

[Breva]

Hello,

So, long story short, I`m fat, and I have a heart condition. It's not a super bad heart condition, but it needs to be mentioned. In order to do wing chun do you need to be able to be strong do push-ups and all those other things that other martial arts need.
Or is it martial art that you do In pairs with other people, and there aren't any great physical hurdles you have to passed in order to learn the system and be able to defend yourself in a streetfight?
Also, I have a mental illness. I take sedatives, which make me slower to react. What are my options? Is Wing Chun learning the whole system enough to beat any criminal, underworld, gangster wise guy who comes asking for it and doesn`t leave me alone?

This thread went all over the place.
1, you can do wing chun but you need to let the sifu know your physical limitations, you will probably need to sign a waiver
2, exercise is greatly encouraged. You get into it and can only last 10 seconds you will be pummeled.
3, many of your responses you seemed to not listen, this would not be good if you are taking an MA class
4, if you are being bullied you may need to change your environment

 

[Badhabits]

Hello,

So, long story short, I`m fat, and I have a heart condition. It's not a super bad heart condition, but it needs to be mentioned. In order to do wing chun do you need to be able to be strong do push-ups and all those other things that other martial arts need.
Or is it martial art that you do In pairs with other people, and there aren't any great physical hurdles you have to passed in order to learn the system and be able to defend yourself in a streetfight?
Also, I have a mental illness. I take sedatives, which make me slower to react. What are my options? Is Wing Chun learning the whole system enough to beat any criminal, underworld, gangster wise guy who comes asking for it and doesn`t leave me alone?

I've no experience with wing chun, but just training a martial art will improve your strength. Instead of thinking about needing to be strong to do a martial art, think instead that doing a martial art will give you physical strength. Also, learning the system is one thing, almost anyone can learn a system. Being able to put it to use is a whole different thing.