Do you ever feel as if the Wing Chun we Learn today isn't original?

[obi_juan_salami]

I don't get it. If you have learned wing chun well from a good teacher and train hard by the time you reach a level of understanding and skill that would allow you to change aspects of it you would find there is no need to change anything. It become so fluid and versitile and a part of your own body to move a certain way, changing it is not only unneccessary but would be a waste of time and energy.

People in our history may have channged things but this is over a period of over 300 years. With people actually using it in challenge fights and battles mutiple tomes in a single lifetime (unlike today). So when they change something they had experience and the chance to go out and use it more in life threatening situations. People will say "there were no boxers in olden day china" or "they never had to face bjj". You think that in the thousands of years of martial arts in china no one thought up grappling? Boxing has been a sport in china from at least 1920s onwards well inside the lifetime of people like sum nung (who did fight his entire life and remain undefeated) and yip man. What works has already been figured out and put together for us. Its up to us to do the training to make it work and learn it as best we can.

Just because something is difficult or not immediately aquired or useable does not make it useless and so thrown away and changed. Just because you dont understand soemthing or cant do it yourself doesnt mean it should be discarded. You could be theowing away or changing very valuable techniques or skills

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just because you dont understand soemthing or cant do it yourself doesnt mean it should be discarded. You could be theowing away or changing very valuable techniques or skills

You are not throwing away anything when your WC also contain hook, uppercut, side kick, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount, ...

WC + hook, uppercut, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount > WC

 

[obi_juan_salami]

You are not throwing away anything when your WC also contain hook, uppercut, side kick, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount, ...

WC + hook, uppercut, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount > WC

I beg to differ. You are throwing away economy if motion, your stance, centreline etc. In other words it ceases to be wing chun.

You are a puzzling fellow. Ive seen your comments on many threads here and it seems you dont do wing chun at all. Just contributing vague suggestions as to how to improve it.

Like i said before if you train hard and to level where you understand it you might find there is nothing to change. The path is set the way it is for a reason. Sometimes you have to get a fair way along before you can understand why its layed out the way it is.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it seems you dont do wing chun at all.

Of course WC is not the only system that I train. But I may be the 1st person in Texas who owned a WC dummy back in 1973. I spent $500 to build that one from a telephone pole.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Of course WC is not the only system that I train. But I may be the 1st person in Texas who owned a WC dummy back in 1973. I spent $500 to build one from a telephone pole.

Well thats great if you are into mixing arts. Or you feel like there are holes in wing chun that need filling with techniques from other styles.

From where i learnt wing chun i have never felt like a question was left unanswered and every technique and principle has a purpose. The style is so seamlessly designed that everything you learn feeds into both what you will do and what you have already done. Each movement flows and turns into another.

I am not against change but i am against fixing whats not broken.

 

[TMA17]

I

You are a puzzling fellow. Ive seen your comments on many threads here and it seems you dont do wing chun at all. Just contributing vague suggestions as to how to improve it.

No that would be me LOL!!!

 

[Eric_H]

My teacher is pretty big on this, preserving the original art. The training methods may change, but the principles behind it shouldn't. That requires a pretty in depth understanding to decide if adding something to it is an evolution or a pollution.

That said, knowing the rules also means knowing how to break them, and what makes that a good idea.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

pollution:

If you are a Judo guy and you are taught how to wrestle with Judo jacket on, will you be interested to learn how to wrestle without Judo jacket? Also will you be interested to integrate your kick and punch into your Judo throw? If your Judo teacher cannot help you in those areas, where will you look for your solution?

Jacket wrestling + no jacket wrestling > jacket wrestling
Jacket wrestling + no jacket wrestling > no jacket wrestling
Jacket wrestling + kick/punch > jacket wrestling
No jacket wrestling + kick/punch > no jacket wrestling

 

[obi_juan_salami]

If you are a Judo guy and you are taught how to wrestle with Judo jacket on, will you be interested to learn how to wrestle without Judo jacket on? Also will you be interested to integrate your kick and punch into your Judo throwing skill? If your Judo teacher cannot help you in those areas, where will you look for your solution?

I don't do judo so i dont know what id be interested in doing if i did judo.

Judo is a sport. Its original art of jujitsu is much more holistic from my understanding.

Also wing chun works regardless if your shirt is on or off. Has both punches and kicks. Also contains throws.

 

[TMA17]

Good points.

 

[Marnetmar]

I don't do judo so i dont know what id be interested in doing if i did judo.

Judo is a sport. Its original art of jujitsu is much more holistic from my understanding.

Also wing chun works regardless if your shirt is on or off. Has both punches and kicks. Also contains throws.

Not to be that guy but the "X is only a sport" argument seriously needs to die already. If the most lethal stuff in one's training is hypothetically the only way to make it work, then one's training seriously needs a step up.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Not to be that guy but the "X is only a sport" argument seriously needs to die already. If the most lethal stuff in one's training is hypothetically the only way to make it work, then one's training seriously needs a step up.

I didnt say "its only a sport" i said "judo is a sport" which it is. And i didnt say it in order to devalue it at all. People who choose to practice it for various reasons and i think it is actually a good martial art.

However, being a sport it is limited to using grappling technique instead of striking and other strategies. People may think they need to cross train in order to feel 'complete'. I consider wing chun to be very complete and not a sport since its curriculum is not governed by any specific ruleset.

Not because you "cant use it in competition" or "it only works for the street" or whatever. You train for what you want out of a martial art. The end goal matters whether its for competing or for self defence or for fitness etc.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

People may think they need to cross train in order to feel 'complete'.

There exist no MA system that is complete. Some people like to have more tools in their toolbox and I'm in that group. I just can't stand to know that there is a MA tool that I don't know how to use it.

The following are MA tools.

1. Punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, ...
2. Kick - front toe kick, front heel kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, back kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, tornado kick, jumping double front kick, jumping crescent kick, ...
3. Knee - upward knee, horizontal knee, 45 degree knee, flying knee, ...
4. Elbow - horizontal elbow, upward elbow, downward elbow, forward elbow, backward elbow, ...
5. Lock - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, knee lock, ankle lock, ...
6. Throw - single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, leg spring, leg lift, leg block, foot sweep, ...
7. Footwork - forward step, backward step, side step, wheeling step, circle walking, circle running, long distance advance, long distance retreat, ...
8. Ground game - full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
9. Short weapon - dagger, double edges sword, single edge knife, Miao Diao, ...
10. Long weapon - staff, pole, spear, Guan Dao, ...
11. Throwing weapon - bow and arrow, throwing dart, throwing knife, throwing rock, ...

As far as "hot weapon" such as hand gun, riffle, shot gun, ..., that will be a different story.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

There exist no MA system that is complete. Some people like to have more tools in their toolbox and I'm in that group. I just can't stand to know that there is a MA tool that I don't know how to use it.

The following are MA tools.

1. Punch - jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, hay-maker, ...
2. Kick - front toe kick, front heel kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, back kick, inside crescent kick, outside crescent kick, tornado kick, jumping double front kick, jumping crescent kick, ...
3. Knee - upward knee, horizontal knee, 45 degree knee, flying knee, ...
4. Elbow - horizontal elbow, upward elbow, downward elbow, forward elbow, backward elbow, ...
5. Lock - finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, knee lock, ankle lock, ...
6. Throw - single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg twist, leg spring, leg lift, leg block, foot sweep, ...
7. Footwork - forward step, backward step, side step, wheeling step, circle walking, circle running, long distance advance, long distance retreat, ...
8. Ground game - full mount, side mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
9. Short weapon - dagger, double edges sword, single edge knife, Miao Diao, ...
10. Long weapon - staff, pole, spear, Guan Dao, ...
11. Throwing weapon - bow and arrow, throwing dart, throwing knife, throwing rock, ...

As far as "hot weapon" such as hand gun, riffle, shot gun, ..., that will be a different story.

Ok for starters we are all martial artists here and we know what these 'tools' are already so not need to list them.

I personally would rather be master of a few effective techniques than mediocre are 1000 others. A complete martial art for me is measured by an effective solution to any attack that is thrown or any given situation. Not sheer number of techniques you know or can make use of.

wing chun is complete in this way. There are few techniques but when strung together form unlimited combinations and coverage across all situations.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me this type of thing is one of my main problems with some traditional places kenpo included. People are to scared to change things and drop things because they're scared to dare go against the "sacred" teachings. For example I was having a conversation with a Kung fu guy recently and he showed me some stuff and I was respectful but I pointed out a few holes and he said oh yeah I know that's rubbish and would never work so I asked why keep teaching it if it doesn't work and he said well that's how it's always been done.

People would rather practice things they know wouldn't ever work than actually say you know what I'm going to change that.

Sometimes it's really just that that's the way they know to teach. There are techniques I've left in my curriculum that I classify (and describe to students) as "esoteric techniques". They won't have much direct application, but are the best way I know to teach and reinforce some principles. Every time I revisit the curriculum, I consider removing them. And every time I personally work with them, I am reminded what I learned from them and how that affects my overall movement. So, I leave them in. If I figure out drills that teach those principles using other techniques or movement, those techniques will be gone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't get it. If you have learned wing chun well from a good teacher and train hard by the time you reach a level of understanding and skill that would allow you to change aspects of it you would find there is no need to change anything. It become so fluid and versitile and a part of your own body to move a certain way, changing it is not only unneccessary but would be a waste of time and energy.

People in our history may have channged things but this is over a period of over 300 years. With people actually using it in challenge fights and battles mutiple tomes in a single lifetime (unlike today). So when they change something they had experience and the chance to go out and use it more in life threatening situations. People will say "there were no boxers in olden day china" or "they never had to face bjj". You think that in the thousands of years of martial arts in china no one thought up grappling? Boxing has been a sport in china from at least 1920s onwards well inside the lifetime of people like sum nung (who did fight his entire life and remain undefeated) and yip man. What works has already been figured out and put together for us. Its up to us to do the training to make it work and learn it as best we can.

Just because something is difficult or not immediately aquired or useable does not make it useless and so thrown away and changed. Just because you dont understand soemthing or cant do it yourself doesnt mean it should be discarded. You could be theowing away or changing very valuable techniques or skills

You're missing a piece of the puzzle. Your statement assumes that WC, as a person is taught it, is perfect. That is not true of any art/system. There will always be something that can be improved. Whether it's tweaking something for better power in specific techniques, adapting a technique to handle a wider range of inputs (from different styles, perhaps), or adjusting something so the practice is less damaging to the practitioner (based upon our progressive knowledge of physiology).

Then you have to add the issue of incomplete transmission. No instructor will ever transmit absolutely 100% of his knowledge about WC (or any art). It's simply impossible with human communication. That means there's a built-in degradation at each generation. If those generations do not add any improvements to what they learned, they are transmitting less than their instructor did. If they make improvements, they may transmit as much as their instructor (or even more, if the improvements are especially good).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok for starters we are all martial artists here and we know what these 'tools' are already so not need to list them.

I personally would rather be master of a few effective techniques than mediocre are 1000 others. A complete martial art for me is measured by an effective solution to any attack that is thrown or any given situation. Not sheer number of techniques you know or can make use of.

wing chun is complete in this way. There are few techniques but when strung together form unlimited combinations and coverage across all situations.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

That can be said of any system with good fundamental weapons (which, IMO, must include both striking and grappling to some extent), if it trains for varied scenarios and inputs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My teacher is pretty big on this, preserving the original art. The training methods may change, but the principles behind it shouldn't. That requires a pretty in depth understanding to decide if adding something to it is an evolution or a pollution.

That said, knowing the rules also means knowing how to break them, and what makes that a good idea.

IMO, that's the right way to "preserve" an art. You start from the principles and look for ways to make the whole better - including examining the principles themselves for flaws. And that does take a depth of understanding.

 

[hoshin1600]

i got in my "way back" machine and went back in time. i talked to this Ng Mui, she said your all nuts.

this is my first visit into this area of MT,,,,,after reading a page of this thread i am so glad i didnt learn this style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

why keep teaching it if it doesn't work and he said well that's how it's always been done.

This is one big problem and here is one example. Everybody know that when you use your hand to attack your opponent's groin, you opponent will punch your head. But this form was still used as the 1st form to teach in the Nanking CMA Academy back in 1928 in China.

The groin strike at 0.34.