Do you ever feel as if the Wing Chun we Learn today isn't original?
I've been learning wing chun for 5 years and I feel as if it has been changed to much from it's origins
Bit of a bit peeve of mine here. The question of whether WC as taught today is or is not the same as "original" WC is not a matter of feelings. It's a factual assertion and factual assertions should be evaluated by looking at the available evidence and using reasoning to evaluate said evidence. "Feelings" aren't relevant to the question of what the facts are.
That comment is primarily about the post title. Once you've determined that WC has evolved over the years, you're entitled to feel whatever you like about that fact.
Very true and it's a shame that we can't go back to pure origins
From an historical research perspective that would be interesting. Not necessarily from a functionality perspective. I can tell you for a fact that Helio Gracie's BJJ knowledge and skill were not on the level of today's top practitioners and teachers. I suspect the same may apply in other arts as well.
And I'd like to learn the original Wing Chun. Like imagine learning Wing Chun from Ng Mui.
From what I can tell, Ng Mui probably never existed (except as a literary figure) and probably wasn't the creator of WC if she did exist.
Just because they founded it or whatever doesn't mean they're better teachers than the people of today.
Yep. See my note above regarding Helio Gracie.
People in our history may have channged things but this is over a period of over 300 years. With people actually using it in challenge fights and battles mutiple tomes in a single lifetime (unlike today).
I'm not so sure about that. The rise of modern MMA (and its immediate predecessors, such as Vale Tudo, and relatives, such as Dog Brothers gatherings) means that we have many fighters who have dozens (or in rare cases even
hundreds) of well-documented professional fights against tough, well-trained opponents with different martial arts backgrounds from around the world under different conditions. We have video footage of thousands of these matches and that footage is studied intensely by many martial artists looking to improve their game. We also have video available of thousands of non-professional violent street encounters.
In contrast, the challenge match experience of a martial artist from a couple of centuries ago was typically with whoever was available locally, was not documented by objective witnesses (let alone video) and was often exaggerated greatly for marketing purposes over the years.
You are not throwing away anything when your WC also contain hook, uppercut, side kick, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount, ...
WC + hook, uppercut, roundhouse kick, flying knee, hip throw, single leg, double legs, arm bar, side mount > WC
Eh, maybe, maybe not. If you just pile on additional techniques without a coherent set of organizing principles I don't think you do much to improve your fighting ability. You may even make yourself less effective.
Jacket wrestling + no jacket wrestling > jacket wrestling
Jacket wrestling + no jacket wrestling > no jacket wrestling
Jacket wrestling + kick/punch > jacket wrestling
No jacket wrestling + kick/punch > no jacket wrestling
Here I agree. (Assuming you are talking about overall combative ability and not just performance in one specific scenario.) My experience is that grappling arts such as Judo, BJJ, Sombo, Wrestling, MMA grappling (and I presume Shuai Jiao from the looks of it) all are based on the same underlying set of principles. The differences in application are just contextual and cultural.
Then you have to add the issue of incomplete transmission. No instructor will ever transmit absolutely 100% of his knowledge about WC (or any art). It's simply impossible with human communication. That means there's a built-in degradation at each generation. If those generations do not add any improvements to what they learned, they are transmitting less than their instructor did. If they make improvements, they may transmit as much as their instructor (or even more, if the improvements are especially good).
i dont agree with this. You are assuming that a person needs to be taught everything, that all knowledge and skill must come directly from the sifu.
One thing my sifu has said is that he cannot teach us everything. For some things he can only get us close, and it is up to us to make the final leap and grasp the understanding. Some things just cannot be described and explained perfectly.
A sifu can teach the complete curriculum (however that may be defined). But while he can also teach nuances from his personal insights and experiences, he cannot transmit the sum total of those insights and experiences to the student.
None of this stuff is perfectly transmittable, and the success or failure ultimately rests on the insights and experiences of the student, coupled with their knowledge and skill with the material. This includes the possibility to go far beyond the sifu. There is not an automatic degradation from one generation to the next, even though it is guaranteed that the sifu will not and cannot teach everything that he knows.
Michael, I think you and Gerry are saying the same thing using different verbiage. Since an instructor cannot transmit 100% of his/her experience to a student, each generation of students must bring their own hard-earned discoveries and experiences to the table in order to keep the art from degrading over time.
Well no. Wrestling has been a part of combat since the dawn of humanity. Chinese Wrestling has been documented back a long long time, as a methodolgy.
Do you really believe that wing chun people from a couple hundred years ago never encountered wrestling, and had absolutely no idea how to deal with it?
No no no. Wrestling of some sort is one of the most intuitive methods of combat, and I will never believe that Southern Chinese never wrestled. All people across history have had some sort of wrestling/grappling. All.
I'm sure there was some sort of wrestling in Southern China during the time WC was being developed. However if it wasn't culturally valued it may have been at a much lower level (technically) than wrestling in other parts of the world. If we have no records of its existence, than I suspect that may be the case.
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