Do Kata/Forms Define the Style?

[Buka]

If I were to design a BJJ solo form, it wouldn't be composed of a series of technique, but a series of commonly used movement patterns. Like this:

In the video, Galvao is just free-styling it, but I could come up with pre-set sequences along the same lines.

We discussed this once. Looks like it could be used like a good pattern for BJJ. A form of Kata, although I don’t think that term would be used.

 

[marvin8]

SC has forms. It's recorded as SC form1, S C form 2, ..., SC form 24.

This is the SC form that I created 40 years ago. So, SC has form for over 40 year.

That wasn't my question. What about shuai jiao, not SC?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That wasn't my question. What about shuai jiao, not SC?

Shuai Chiao (term used in Taiwan and US) = Shuai Jiao (term used in China) = Chinese wrestling

Both SC and SJ have forms. It may be different.

When my teacher moved from China to Taiwan, he changed "SJ 24 forms" into "SC 24 forms".

Here is the new SC form created in Taiwan.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My Yang style Shifu was at that fight, and he, his teacher and other martial artist that were there at the time thought it was bad. Per my Shifu it was billed much like an Ali, Frazer fight.... the audience was not happy and many were asking for their money back..... so it is not a good example of sparing at the time

lol. I would be upset too, if someone gave me sold me a ticket to see kung fu master's and I ended up seeing that. People in the crowd probably had better sibling fights.lol.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What does it mean if the following styles’ founders didn't create a form that contained their favorite fighting skills? Yiquan, Sanda, Mongolian wrestling, Jeet Kune Do, judo (seldom trained), muay thai, BJJ and fencing.

I don't believe this thread discussion include "non-form based" MA systems.

 

[marvin8]

Shuai Chiao (term used in Taiwan and US) = Shuai Jiao (term used in China) = Chinese wrestling

Both SC and SJ have forms. It may be different.

When my teacher moved from China to Taiwan, he changed "SJ 24 forms" into "SC 24 forms".

Here is the new SC form created in Taiwan.

Except Baoding, do all the other styles/lineages of Chinese wrestling (e.g., Hebei, Beijing, Tianjin, Shanxi and Mongolian) have forms?

 

[hoshin1600]

My Yang style Shifu was at that fight, and he, his teacher and other martial artist that were there at the time thought it was bad. Per my Shifu it was billed much like an Ali, Frazer fight.... the audience was not happy and many were asking for their money back..... so it is not a good example of sparing at the time

It's not an example of a good fight, but it might be an example of a common outcome when stepping in the ring. If we look at the first few UFC fights there were lots of examples of the exact same out come. Each of those poor performances let people down and in some cases pushed the fighter years later to the edge of suicide due to the humiliation. Fighters make excuses of, oh I didn't train right, I was sick ect. But fighting is hard physical and emotionally. I think @Bill Mattocks had a thread about how we all suck. And we do, at least most of us.
My point was that TMA people tend to put the old masters up on a pedestal, as they should for what they accomplished and passed down to us. But that doesn't mean they were great fighters. I think we are better today then they were back then. Not as individuals but as a whole.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except Baoding, do all the other styles/lineages of Chinese wrestling (e.g., Hebei, Beijing, Tianjin, Shanxi and Mongolian) have forms?

I do know that Beijing SJ, Tianjin SJ, and Baoding SJ all have forms. I'm not sure about Shanxi SJ and Mongolian SJ. The founder of the Baoding SJ system Ping Jing-Yi had strong CMA foundation/background.

This video is from Beijing SJ.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's not an example of a good fight, but it might be an example of a common outcome when stepping in the ring.

At most it would be the expected outcome of beginners. People had street fights back then as well, so they would have a good comparison between "Good fight" and disappointment.

Fighters make excuses of, oh I didn't train right, I was sick ect. But fighting is hard physical and emotionally.

The fighter's I've known never taught like that this. If they lost a fight then they wanted to get their pay back and not make an excuse. Fighter personality types don't make up excuses. Instead, they say, "I'll get you next time." Even at the smallest levels they want to have a solution for the attacks that they had to deal with.

A. Fighters' mentality "I want to get better, show me."
B. Non-Fighter mentality "I'll make an excuse."

I believe A and B are universal with the rare exception that a fighter will make an excuse. At least that's what I've seen on all skill levels.

 

[marvin8]

I do know that Beijing SJ, Tianjin SJ, and Baoding SJ all have forms. I'm not sure about Shanxi SJ and Mongolian SJ. The founder of the Baoding SJ system Ping Jing-Yi had strong CMA foundation/background.

This video is from Beijing SJ.

Do you consider that gif a Beijing SJ form or drill?

 

[isshinryuronin]

At most it would be the expected outcome of beginners. People had street fights back then as well, so they would have a good comparison between "Good fight" and disappointment.


The fighter's I've known never taught like that this. If they lost a fight then they wanted to get their pay back and not make an excuse. Fighter personality types don't make up excuses. Instead, they say, "I'll get you next time." Even at the smallest levels they want to have a solution for the attacks that they had to deal with.

A. Fighters' mentality "I want to get better, show me."
B. Non-Fighter mentality "I'll make an excuse."

I believe A and B are universal with the rare exception that a fighter will make an excuse. At least that's what I've seen on all skill levels.

Anyone who considers themselves a professional or at least a serious student will want to correct their deficiencies. To do this they have to admit their deficiencies. Humility in MA is not from lack of confidence. It allows one to learn and leads to greater ability and confidence. Probably true in most walks of life.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you consider that gif a Beijing SJ form or drill?

Single move should be called drill. Combo moves should be called form.

When you throw a jab, cross combo, it may be hard to say whether you are doing drill, or you are doing form.

 

[marvin8]

Single move should be called drill. Combo moves should be called form.

When you throw a jab, cross combo, it may be hard to say whether you are doing drill, or you are doing form.

I don't understand your answer to my question. Do you consider that gif a Beijing SJ form or drill?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't understand your answer to my question. Do you consider that gif a Beijing SJ form or drill?

That video is a combo move - twist, hip throw. You twist your opponent to his left, when he resists, you then throw him to his right.

Since it's 2 moves combo (use move 1 to set up move 2), I will call that "form".

So, a groin kick is drill. But if a groin kick followed with a face punch, it should be called as form.

 

[gyoja]

That video is a combo move - twist, hip throw. You twist your opponent to his left, when he resists, you then throw him to his right.

Since it's 2 moves combo (use move 1 to set up move 2), I will call that "form".

So, a groin kick is drill. But if a groin kick followed with a face punch, it should be called as form.

It seems like there is a confusion of terms. For us, forms are a longer series of techniques; usually 20 or more. Our drills are one to four techniques long.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It seems like there is a confusion of terms. For us, forms are a longer series of techniques; usually 20 or more. Our drills are one to four techniques long.

But 20 is still an abstract number. Why use 20 and not 19, or 21?

This is an 8 moves combo that move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ..., move 7 set up move 8.

Will you call that a drill, or a form?

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's not an example of a good fight, but it might be an example of a common outcome when stepping in the ring. If we look at the first few UFC fights there were lots of examples of the exact same out come. Each of those poor performances let people down and in some cases pushed the fighter years later to the edge of suicide due to the humiliation. Fighters make excuses of, oh I didn't train right, I was sick ect. But fighting is hard physical and emotionally. I think @Bill Mattocks had a thread about how we all suck. And we do, at least most of us.
My point was that TMA people tend to put the old masters up on a pedestal, as they should for what they accomplished and passed down to us. But that doesn't mean they were great fighters. I think we are better today then they were back then. Not as individuals but as a whole.

We see hardly any films of “old masters” to make any sort of competent judgement. And using the one you posted to support your statement, when those at the time thought it was bad, and the martial artists of the time questioned why old man Wu stepped into the ring at all. Is like posting a video of a bad UFC fight that was basically a slap fight and then making the same claim about UFC.

Basically, based on the reality of that fight, it is not an example to support your statement and then apply to an entire group.

 

[gyoja]

But 20 is still an abstract number. Why use 20 and not 19, or 21?

This is an 8 moves combo that move 1 set up move 2, move 2 set up move 3, ..., move 7 set up move 8.

Will you call that a drill, or a form?

A drill. Our forms are different lengths, with a series of different techniques that compliment one another. Early forms will repeat these for each side (right and left), while later forms will be more complex. We have sixty separate drills that we must learn (30 hand , 30 kick).

 

[Flying Crane]

We see hardly any films of “old masters” to make any sort of competent judgement. And using the one you posted to support your statement, when those at the time thought it was bad, and the martial artists of the time questioned why old man Wu stepped into the ring at all. Is like posting a video of a bad UFC fight that was basically a slap fight and then making the same claim about UFC.

Basically, based on the reality of that fight, it is not an example to support your statement and then apply to an entire group.

Every era had its share of competent and skilled people as well as those who were incompetent and unskilled. This is life.

 

[Flying Crane]

We see hardly any films of “old masters” to make any sort of competent judgement. And using the one you posted to support your statement, when those at the time thought it was bad, and the martial artists of the time questioned why old man Wu stepped into the ring at all. Is like posting a video of a bad UFC fight that was basically a slap fight and then making the same claim about UFC.

Basically, based on the reality of that fight, it is not an example to support your statement and then apply to an entire group.

To be completely honest, it makes me ponder the collective sociopathic nature of a species that finds entertainment in watching people beat each other up. There is something unhealthy and warped in humans.