Yes, but they dont have excessive bulk in non-essential areas. If maximum total muscle mass was the best way to maximize all performance, then all Olympic athletes would be built exactly the same way, like powerlifters. Instead, there tends to be an ideal body type for each sport. Generally speaking, it is wise to carefully tailor your training to meet your specific needs. That said, I'm just trying to get a little stronger... that's all.
Do any of you incorporate weight training into your Wing Chun?
- Thread starter koenig
- Start date
Yes, but they dont have excessive bulk in non-essential areas. If maximum total muscle mass was the best way to maximize all performance, then all Olympic athletes would be built exactly the same way, like powerlifters. Instead, there tends to be an ideal body type for each sport. Generally speaking, it is wise to carefully tailor your training to meet your specific needs. That said, I'm just trying to get a little stronger... that's all.
- Thread Starter
- #22
Only the heavyweight powerlifters are big (fat, lol).
The lightweight ones are ridiculous. 120 pound people bench pressing 400 pounds.
I know plenty of martial artists who weigh much more than that yet who cannot lift even half of that.
It's possible to get very strong without adding size through training with heavy weights. The increase in strength comes from central nervous system adaptation. Of course the "not adding size" part comes from a) not eating like a bodybuilder and b) keeping the volume low. A few sets of low reps with heavy weight won't add any size, but it will make you very strong over time. Of course it won't do anything for your endurance, but that's another issue.
The lightweight ones are ridiculous. 120 pound people bench pressing 400 pounds.
I know plenty of martial artists who weigh much more than that yet who cannot lift even half of that.
It's possible to get very strong without adding size through training with heavy weights. The increase in strength comes from central nervous system adaptation. Of course the "not adding size" part comes from a) not eating like a bodybuilder and b) keeping the volume low. A few sets of low reps with heavy weight won't add any size, but it will make you very strong over time. Of course it won't do anything for your endurance, but that's another issue.
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Strength is a skill, more so than the conditioning and bulking up of the muscles. Just as punching is a skill, the reason my 140 lbs Sifu can send 200+ lbs me reeling across the room with a single punch (me wearing a chest protector of course).
It has a lot to do with being able to access and and fire off the optimal amount of muscle fibers, coordinated at the right time and in the right sequence.
The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift.
It's kind of like the parable about the elephant who is leashed with a paper chain. I guess.
matsu
Purple Belt
as a former bodybuilder i have weighed 19stone at 6ft2in the past, a personal trainer and someone who now uses much less weight and much less weight training i can honestly say that it DOES interfere with your wing chun!
this is because with wing chun,-and most martial arts)you use the muscles differently.
with my pectoral bulk i find it almost impossible to do a centreline tan sau without severe concentration.... NOT because my chest is so big BUT i am so used to pulling my arm across my chest with my pectoral muscle and/or pushing with my delts and not relaxing my chest and allowing the elbow to come across.i need to learn how to use the muscles differntly to how i do as a weight trainer.
if you train with weights you will be fitter faster stronger leaner and more flexible that if you di not! end of!! but it is how you incorporate that into you wing chun that will make a difference.
i am extremely strong in my exercises and i look like i am, but my sifu can out push me he can out press me out punch me and i,m sure he could tear a phonebook in half because he has what i call real strength rahter than specific strength like i do!
i now weight train 4 days per week in the mornings but i am using a fraction of the weight and i use very different exercises to what i did to now help my body and muscle memory adapt to wing chun techniques!
seeker- "The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift."
this is only slightly true-the reason powerlifters and sprinters (even marathon runners also actually) rarely push to the max is the peaking phenomenon-i,m am sure its placeabo effect personally but you build up your performance gradually toward a meet/race so that you perform at your very best on the right day....
BUT also you never want to push youself to the max day in day out because your central nervous system will shut you down in preservation mode-it wont let you overdo it continously for fear of permanent damage.
sifu always says you will get strong enough by doing 200-2000 punches a day and you will, esp if you suplement them with push ups bag work etc.... but most of us would like to look like we can punch the crap out of an opponent as well.
hope that makes sense i feel i ahve rambled on far too much
matsu
this is because with wing chun,-and most martial arts)you use the muscles differently.
with my pectoral bulk i find it almost impossible to do a centreline tan sau without severe concentration.... NOT because my chest is so big BUT i am so used to pulling my arm across my chest with my pectoral muscle and/or pushing with my delts and not relaxing my chest and allowing the elbow to come across.i need to learn how to use the muscles differntly to how i do as a weight trainer.
if you train with weights you will be fitter faster stronger leaner and more flexible that if you di not! end of!! but it is how you incorporate that into you wing chun that will make a difference.
i am extremely strong in my exercises and i look like i am, but my sifu can out push me he can out press me out punch me and i,m sure he could tear a phonebook in half because he has what i call real strength rahter than specific strength like i do!
i now weight train 4 days per week in the mornings but i am using a fraction of the weight and i use very different exercises to what i did to now help my body and muscle memory adapt to wing chun techniques!
seeker- "The reason most power-lifters and strong men do not lift their max but rarely and they don't lift 'till exhaustion is so that their central nervous system doesn't get accustomed or set to a max weight that they can lift."
this is only slightly true-the reason powerlifters and sprinters (even marathon runners also actually) rarely push to the max is the peaking phenomenon-i,m am sure its placeabo effect personally but you build up your performance gradually toward a meet/race so that you perform at your very best on the right day....
BUT also you never want to push youself to the max day in day out because your central nervous system will shut you down in preservation mode-it wont let you overdo it continously for fear of permanent damage.
sifu always says you will get strong enough by doing 200-2000 punches a day and you will, esp if you suplement them with push ups bag work etc.... but most of us would like to look like we can punch the crap out of an opponent as well.
hope that makes sense i feel i ahve rambled on far too much
matsu
qwksilver61
Black Belt
I was told to "refrain from lifting weights,the training wil take care of any deficiency,besides it will only slow you down and cause the muscles to work against you" (ie;extensors and contractors)
matsu
Purple Belt
the problem with weights ie bodybuilding is that it designed to build each specific muscle as an individual to its strongest and therefore its biggest potential. a bodybuilder then uses each selection of exercises like a sculpter does clay to add muscle so that they are(or should be) proportional to each other. it has no relevence to real active strength.
but if you plan a weights schedule to enhance your training you will find you are beta because you SUPPLEMENT your training with weights.
look at any true athelete sprinter high jumper triple jumper . they all use weights secifically to enhance their endeavour and i believe that we can all do the same.
and if we are to believe what we read hear about bruce lee- he used weights and was apparantly superhuman strong for his light frame!
sorry i must have verbal diahraooeeaaaheaeaaaa this week!
matsu
but if you plan a weights schedule to enhance your training you will find you are beta because you SUPPLEMENT your training with weights.
look at any true athelete sprinter high jumper triple jumper . they all use weights secifically to enhance their endeavour and i believe that we can all do the same.
and if we are to believe what we read hear about bruce lee- he used weights and was apparantly superhuman strong for his light frame!
sorry i must have verbal diahraooeeaaaheaeaaaa this week!
matsu
dnovice
Blue Belt
I just do push up's no weights. I used to.
- Thread Starter
- #30
That's also physiologically incorrect.
It's like saying if your biceps and triceps get really strong, it's going to slow down your punches cuz your biceps are slowing down your triceps.
When a muscle contracts against resistance, its antagonist relaxes. This happens by default unless you consciously contract it. Therefore, nothing will "slow you down," such as your biceps "slowing down" a punch unless you're consciously contracting it
- Thread Starter
- #31
I never said it wasn't
However instead of saying a "skill" i'd say "a function of CNS efficiency."
Yup. Neurological efficiency.
Most powerlifters and strongmen lift near their max (3-5 rep range) in order to keep their CNS accustomed to heavy weights, but you're right, they don't max out often because they don't want to hit CNS fatigue. This is especially true for the competitive ones who have to plan out their maxes to the day (competition day).
In fact, if they always lifted their max, they'd never make any progress, hence the saying "only the mediocre are always at their best." The smart and strong ones cycle and back off the weights frequently.
It's why in the gym you see a lot of guys who can bench 225 but never increase. Every workout they want to do 225 to appease their egos and so they never give their body a chance to adapt and improve. If they backed off a bit down to 170 or so and ramped back up they'd probably hit 230 or 235 in a few weeks. But no one wants to do that because then no one would see them bench 225 for a few weeks and we can't have that can we!!!
qwksilver61
Black Belt
Not my personal opinion,but what was told to me by GGM Leung Ting while attending a seminar.
- Thread Starter
- #34
No offense to you or Leung Ting intended.
But, and this applies toward almost all traditional instructors... most martial artists are about the last people in the world you want to get weightlifting of physiology advice from.
It's not their fault tho. I believed a lot of the "martial arts weightlifting myths" for years, too, until I started learning how things really work. I avoided lifting weights for YEARS because I thought it would hurt my progress. I thought it would make me slow. I thought it would make me "too big" (lol... with my metabolism.. yeah right!). Instead, I did crazy strength sets and other methods of building strength that I honestly believed were more effective (a little bit was brainwashing and a little bit was denial... and a little bit was me craving something exotic and superior). But just on that example, I can honestly tell you that I got better results from my first few months of (correct technique) weightlifting than from YEARS of super secret internal strength development sets prior to picking up a weight.
Anyway I'm getting off topic.
No, you're not (IMHO). I thought the topic was whether or not weight training was useful... and you are straight to the point here. Although, I don't know if you are entirely right or not. I was getting grilled the other day for being a bit stiff and heavy in my chi-sau, and my partners suspected it was because I've started lifting again. And, they may have been right on that occasion, since I was still sore from the effects (DOMS) of a heavy workout. But with another day of rest, that faded away. The most experienced person present was of the opinion that the problem with being heavy and stiff is at least as much psychological as physical. And that the negative effects of lifting may have been overstated by traditionlalists (as you pointed out). Hell, I personally know a couple of excellent chunners who are way overweight. They are still fast and powerful. So how much harm could a little extra muscle do?
- Thread Starter
- #37
Yes, it was because of DOMS.
DOMS makes everything suck, especially walking down stairs. lol.
I remember my first squat workout ever. I was a Freshman in college and I walked from my dorm to the gym. To get there I had to go up some stairs. I remember thinking "good, I'm glad the up stairs are on the way there, because going up stairs is hard work. After my workout I'll be tired but I'll only have to go down stairs and that's easy."
Boy did I have that backward! I remember when my leg buckled and I fell and caught the railing to save myself. lol.
Well, I guess technically that wasn't DOMS since it was right after my workout and DOMS usually doesn't start for a day or two.
Anyway, DOMS makes it hard to do stuff. It messes with your technique and undoubtedly your chi sao. Good thing it tends to fade over time.
DOMS makes everything suck, especially walking down stairs. lol.
I remember my first squat workout ever. I was a Freshman in college and I walked from my dorm to the gym. To get there I had to go up some stairs. I remember thinking "good, I'm glad the up stairs are on the way there, because going up stairs is hard work. After my workout I'll be tired but I'll only have to go down stairs and that's easy."
Boy did I have that backward! I remember when my leg buckled and I fell and caught the railing to save myself. lol.
Well, I guess technically that wasn't DOMS since it was right after my workout and DOMS usually doesn't start for a day or two.
Anyway, DOMS makes it hard to do stuff. It messes with your technique and undoubtedly your chi sao. Good thing it tends to fade over time.
I would think that NOT lifting would be more detrimental to wing chun. What martial artist doesn't perform better when they are in better shape?
For my money, I prefer cardio workouts to weights (although I used to be the opposite). Still, you need to have weights in there because without it, you would start losing muscle mass. (For example, Shaun T from the Insanity DVDs isn't so massive just because of cardio: he doesn't promote this, but he lifts weights as well.)Similar threads
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