Wing Chun and Weight Training

[Hopkins0603]

I did Wing Chun in the past and my instructor was always saying "too much weights, I must stop". A few times I have thought about returning to this style but I love weight training as well and could never stop. Is there any truth in what my instructor was saying? Do it really hinder Wing Chun? Or should I try something else? I have considered CLF.

 

[geezer]

There is some truth to what you've been told. I've put aside my weights for the last year and switched to body-weight and elastic band conditioning, plus more running, hiking, biking and other "cardio" stuff, and I feel looser, faster, and I believe this approach has helped my WC. The bottom line is that overdoing it with weights can give you excessive bulk and make your muscles feel tight and heavy, which is not helpful in WC. If you are into bulking up, you need to pay a lot of attention to stretching and maintaining a good range of motion. And remember, there are some big, buff dudes who are good at WC. If your instructor is very traditional, he won't approve, so it's up to you to train hard and prove him wrong! Post back in a while and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Haris Lamboo Faisal]

Agree with geezer about Flexibility, it is very important , If you think you can bulk up but also remain flexible for which you will need to do stretches of the particular muscles you are working with your regular weight training routine to loosen them up , i'd reccommend stretching "after" the excercise though some people who go to the gym more regularly than i do would disagree.

 

[almost a ghost]

That's really a hard question to answer since A) Everybody is built differently and B) Everybody builds muscle differently.

If you are looking to be bulky and have a lot of muscle mass then you're going to have a problem, but you're going to have that same problem in any art that is center-line based.

I've been doing Wing Chun for 10 years and when I left weights I go for high reps (10-12) at 3 or 4 sets versus a lot of weight with low reps, this allows me to build more of the primary muscle, really hit the secondary/support muscles and help tendon strength but not bulk up too much.

The good thing about weight training is that I can leave that "use my muscles" mentality at the gym and totally relax and be "lazy" doing my forms and Chi Sao.

 

[Hopkins0603]

My instructor said that my shoulder was going to high when I did bong sau in single sticky hand. He said that the shoulders should stay level with each other when doing this technique but I found this impossible. He blamed the weights, is this all correct?

 

[almost a ghost]

Most likely, it means that you are initiating the movement with your shoulder causing your to "lift" into bong-sau from the tan-sau position. It could also mean that you are dropping your tan-sau, which would also cause you rely on your shoulder to get back up into a proper bong-sau position.

Remember, it's forward intention that initiates the movement. When I chi sao with someone and I feel their shoulder coming up during a bong sau I know 99% when they go into tan sau there is a big gap of no forward-intention.

 

[Hopkins0603]

he never explained all that to me to be honest. He said the shoulder was wrong. Thanks for that.

 

[mook jong man]

My instructor said that my shoulder was going to high when I did bong sau in single sticky hand. He said that the shoulders should stay level with each other when doing this technique but I found this impossible. He blamed the weights, is this all correct?

When the shoulders come up they lose the connection to the rest of the body and power is lost , in any movement you should be striving to keep the shoulders relaxed and down.

It could just be a shoulder flexibility issue related to the weight training or could be due to an old injury , I know with my left elbow strike it does not come up as high as the right because I injured it years ago helping a young lady move house.
There's not much you can do about it except be aware of the problem and keep working on it .

My advice to you would be to get in front of the mirror and practice loosening up the shoulders with what my master used to call the "chicken wing exercise" , its supposed to be an exercise for elbow strikes but it should be of benefit to you.

Keep your fingertips of both hands high on your chest as you make big circles with your elbows , make the rotations as big as possible , do quite a few repetitions then reverse the direction.

After a few minutes of this the deltoids will begin to fatigue and start to relax , next give your arms a bit of a shake and let them hang down limply from your shoulder sockets , concentrate hard on relaxing the shoulders and letting go of any tension , feel the weight of your arms pulling your shoulders down.

Next bend your arms to the approximate angle you use in chi sau and with your elbows pointing down by your sides start to scribe small circles with your elbows first one direction for a while then the reverse direction , all the while concentrating on letting the arms hang from the socket and keeping the shoulder joint as relaxed as possible.

Next you might want to practice rotating from Tan to Bong and back again still maintaining the feeling of the earlier exercises in keeping the shoulder relaxed and down.
Then start practicing your chi sau with a partner and still concentrating on your shoulders.

These exercises should give you some degree of body awareness so that you can recognise those times when you are tensing up and raising your shoulder , which is half the battle really , recognising when and where the tension is located and then consciously relaxing the area.
It's just going to take a little mental discipline for awhile thats all.

With the weights I would avoid isolation movements such as bicep curls like the plague , you want to get more into things like the bodyweight stuff Geezer mentioned , stuff like pull ups , chin ups etc .
These give you more functional strength anyway , as more muscles are recruited and worked through different planes of motion.

 

[Eric_H]

Switch up to crossfit, it doesn't lend itself to losing flexibility. IMO it's the best companion to TMA training.

 

[mook jong man]

Switch up to crossfit, it doesn't lend itself to losing flexibility. IMO it's the best companion to TMA training.

That crossfit stuff is brutal Eric , I tried a couple of their workouts and didn't know whether to hurl or pass out.

 

[mograph]

There's this idea in the West that focusing on the components of a system is the best way to improve the system, which has led to the idea of isolated weight training. However, it ignores the fact that the body is a system where the components work together naturally. Once we learn where we've held tension (whether due to isolated weight training or not), we can perform exercises like those suggested by Mook Jong Man to relax those areas, and return to a natural state of relaxed whole-body application where the load is distributed naturally through the body and to the ground. It's healthier and more effective.

Of course, muscles should not be ignored, but I don't believe they should be isolated. Paul Chek has a series of exercises he calls "primal patterns" that look useful because they use multiple muscles in natural ways.

 

[geezer]

That crossfit stuff is brutal Eric , I tried a couple of their workouts and didn't know whether to hurl or pass out.

No problem. As I learned from my drinking days in my youth, it's quite possible to do both!

 

[Eric_H]

That crossfit stuff is brutal Eric , I tried a couple of their workouts and didn't know whether to hurl or pass out.

That's the fun part It goes away after the first week or two.

 

[mesar]

I have recent experience in this field. I did some bulking this year and put on a lot of muscle. My strength has greatly increased, and for months this has impacted my training. I did not stretch, made some wing chun movements more complicated, and with my strength increase I did not have to relaxe cause only my Sifu could take advantage of me using strength. Fortunately, my Sifu approves of my weight lifting, but says extra effort must be applied.
I started stretches to get my flexibility back, tight muscles look good but slows you down and hinders your agility. I had to in my training to go extra light strength wise so I don't force the movement and have the ability to yield when I must. I had to in some cases make the decision to yield even when I didn't have to. Training wise, good for my development and not rely on my strength. lol but so hard to do. Practice by yielding to women in your class, they are weaker than you and don't have the force, so it'll stretch your ability to be sensitive enough to feel the force and respond.
Wing Chun and weight lifting is totally feasable, just take extra effort to not hinder your wing chun. I love lifting weights and don't see myself ever stopping, so I'm willing to apply the extra effort to do both things I love.

 

[punisher73]

Your sifu is just greatly misinformed. Weight training has always been a part of traditional arts. Many of the old exercises listed in such books as 72 Consumate Arts are things like deadlifts, squats, presses etc. Not to mention the brass rings worn on the forearms to build strength and condition the forearm.

Even in karate, they continued with the exercises they learned in China and used equivalents of the dumbbell, barbell and kettlebells. Even designing iron sandals to add weight like we would with ankle weights.

 

[mook jong man]

Your sifu is just greatly misinformed. Weight training has always been a part of traditional arts. Many of the old exercises listed in such books as 72 Consumate Arts are things like deadlifts, squats, presses etc. Not to mention the brass rings worn on the forearms to build strength and condition the forearm.

Even in karate, they continued with the exercises they learned in China and used equivalents of the dumbbell, barbell and kettlebells. Even designing iron sandals to add weight like we would with ankle weights.

It might be great for karate but as far as Chi sau is concerned it is no good , it causes tension that inhibits forward force (springy force).

Over the years there have been periods where I have did weights and it certainly had a bad effect on my Chi sau by slowing my speed and reflexes and degrading forward force , the only type of weight training that I have found not to cause problems is bodyweight training and some kettlebell exercises.

Chi sau is it's own form of resistance exercise with constant pressure mobilised from the triceps , in order for forward force to work properly on loss of a counter force from the opponents arms , the biceps , shoulders , and pectorals must be as relaxed as possible.

Weight training with heavy to moderately heavy weights is just not compatible with the Sil Lim Tao state we are trying to achieve in reaching a deep level of relaxation.

 

[ilhe4e12345]

weight training has always been an important part of MA (or atleast all the teachers i have spoken to have told me this). When i first started my training i was very overweight, no real muscle build and jsut fat. I start at 6'3" 300 pounds 4 years ago and now im down to 267 and i put on a lot of muscle tone. I started with weight training because i have a hard time doing cardio (or atleast hard fast cardio) and the weight training really helped me lose some weight off my arms and legs especially. I also noticed for punching it increased my speed by a lot.

Now i primarily train in 7 Star Praying Mantis but i also do a little WC and it has helped, but dont go over the top. The problem is when someone hears "weight training" they picture in their head those jacked out guys at the gym that cant scratch the back of their heads becuase their arms are so big....at a tounrament once i was in a sparring match with a MASSIVE body builder who practiced karate (not sure what style but it was karate) and i was able to hit him before he could even move to block.

Weight training is great for MA, jsut dont go crazy into bodybuilding like show muslces..then it hurts MA more then it helps...

Happy Training

 

[Punchy]

I don't think it's weight training so much as how you approach it.
Most people I see weight training in the gym go at it from a body builder's approach, which is to say isolation exercises.
Whereas doing body weight exercises, pullups as an example, uses major muscle groups.

I believe the key for WC strength training is to strength train using exercises that call into play major muscle groups, whether you do this using weights or body weight.

 

[WCman1976]

I did Wing Chun in the past and my instructor was always saying "too much weights, I must stop". A few times I have thought about returning to this style but I love weight training as well and could never stop. Is there any truth in what my instructor was saying? Do it really hinder Wing Chun? Or should I try something else? I have considered CLF.

I have been doing weightlifting routines for some time now, and my Sifu expressed the same concerns yours did: he was worried I would be too stiff during chi sao. However, that wasn't the case. Big muscles doesn't mean you will always be slower or more stiff. There is also no guarantee this will happen if you do isolating exercises like Bruce Lee used to do. He would do routines where he pressed his forearm up against a metal bar and hold it for a certain amount of time. (At least, that is my vague memory of what he used to do. It's been a while since I read up about his workouts.) The only time it might slow you down is if your biceps blew up like balloons. LOL

 

[WingChunIan]

If you want to lift weights because you enjoy it or because you want the aesthetics then you should carry on and make sure that you regularly stretch. Unfortunately it may still hinder your Wing Chun because "pumped" muscles ie those gorged with blood and fatigued muscles respond more slowly than the same muscles in their natural state so unless you can leave sufficient time between gym and Wing Chun there will be a negative impact. I used to be a gym rat but then realised that all the time I spent in the gym could be spent training Wing Chun and it was a no brainer.