Dissapointed in Wing Chun

[OneWhoKnowsNothing]

Dear Blindside,
I apologize for not continueing with "the right topic", of this forum, but the questions i have are for those in it. I know what you say is true, and i to, have come to the conclusion, that many dissapointments lye ahead, but, though with that said, that doesn't mean i'm going to give up in my search. My internsions are not to sound foolish, though to some, they may be, but i do indeed have high expectations. And with once, getting pulled into a bad school, i wish that to never happen again. I live in Willowick Blindside, just to answer your question.
I'm very lost, in the fact i don't know what to completely look for in a good teacher, and,..or where to find such a person. I know, there will be things, that be of my own likeing, and it be not of others,(and quite possibly vis-versa), but there are certin things i know not what to look for, and that, is the very reason i come to you. I thank you very much for your time and cooperation Mister Blindside, if any more to say you have,..i be, incredibly grateful.
-OneWhoKnowsNothing

 

[Spook]

Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.

Can you say "nail on the head?"

I agree as well. Too many times do i see WC practitioners muscling their way through forms, drills, and techniques.

 

[dmax999]

Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.

Isn't this true of all CMA? Only the "Internal" ones actually train for it. (I personally think of WC as the 4th internal MA)

 

[arnisador]

Wing chun internal! I don't think I've heard that suggested before--just Hsing-I, B Gua, Tai Chi, and possibly, if one considers it 'martial', Chi Gong.

 

[Ric Flair]

The laws here in North America make it hard for people to spar full contact in the class without too much padding.

Maybe that is why i read somewhere once a WC Sifu said "In class you hone your skills and talents but, only in the real world out there will you be able to test for yourself what is efficient and what is not. Here in the class i give you the knowledge of the tools of the trade, it is up to you as the artist to go out there to obtain and learn (sometimes the hard way) when and how which tools will be brought out to use for the right circumstances"

Also, an Escrima teacher once said "When sparring or fightng, this is not the time to figure out forms and movements. During a fight you must adapt and flow with the energy and movments of your opponent. Forms/movements/reaction timing are all to be drilled over and over in the class (alone and with partners) until everything practiced becomes second nature. Once you are familiar with the basics, you can spar/fight with someone and see which movements come out naturally and work naturally. YOur mind is to be empty of anticipation and not be preoccupied with what you need to be do, your body will do the talking and walking... Of course many battles are to be lost in order for a war to be won sometimes.

I personally know that a lot of Boxers and Thai boxers are exceptional fighters and i'm sure can give a lot of Wing Chun peeps a tough time. I mean a boxer who can throw 20 punches in a few seconds would be a challenge to anyone.

Anyways going back to my point, yeah i think with the right teacher, the right student, the right attitudes Wing Chun can be a very effective Art.

 

[OneWhoKnowsNothing]

Arnisador:
You must not forget Liu He Ba Fa Quan.

 

[arnisador]

Ah yes, Water Boxing! I do know of Six Harmonies, but had forgotten.

 

[OneWhoKnowsNothing]

I love that website, I've read every Kung-Fu style on it. It's such an amazing website. you could not also forget though, about (Perpetual Spring-Time Fist),...or Ever Lasting Spring-Time Fist, known as Wudan.

 

[dmax999]

Lie Hu Ba Fa is without question an internal style, its just usually not listed as one of the main ones because it is far less known.

But WC not an internal style? Why wouldn't it be? What really defines an internal vs external style? Its not practicing slowly, Xing-I and BaGua wouldn't be there then. Its more of concentrating on using your entire body for each move/strike. While all styles do this eventually, internal styles start with training this then go for speed. Bruce Lee's "one inch punch" I believe was from WC, but amazingly it is almost the exact same thing as fajing in TCC.

One reason for WC not to be is that it is a southern style, while all the "traditional" internal styles are northern.

 

[OneWhoKnowsNothing]

pretty much, what defines an internal art, is the act of not useing force upon force.
i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.

 

[brothershaw]

Lie Hu Ba Fa is without question an internal style, its just usually not listed as one of the main ones because it is far less known.

But WC not an internal style? Why wouldn't it be? What really defines an internal vs external style? Its not practicing slowly, Xing-I and BaGua wouldn't be there then. Its more of concentrating on using your entire body for each move/strike. While all styles do this eventually, internal styles start with training this then go for speed. Bruce Lee's "one inch punch" I believe was from WC, but amazingly it is almost the exact same thing as fajing in TCC.

One reason for WC not to be is that it is a southern style, while all the "traditional" internal styles are northern.

Fajing in tcc,= jing in wing chun but different
Not everybody gets it/ trains it

 

[arnisador]

You must not forget Liu He Ba Fa Quan.

I saw a book on this at Barnes and Noble last night:
Liuhebafa Five Character Secrets : Chinese Classics, Translations, Commentary by Paul Dillon

Unfortunately for me it is mostly text aimed at practitioners, with very few pictures. So, it was little help for me in learning about the style!

 

[brothershaw]

pretty much, what defines an internal art, is the act of not useing force upon force.
i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.

Not just not using force on force but also using internal "mechanics" to generate your own force as opposed to just muscular mechanics. I dont claim to have this ability or an accurate way to explain it.

 

[arnisador]

i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.

When I read this I thought it was quite surprising, maybe even wrong. Today I had my first full lesson in Wing Chun (earlier sections of a JKD class did bits and pieces of it) and I can now see where you (or those who say this) are coming from. I'm not fully convinced yet, but it seems much more plausible to me after doing don sau (one-armed chi sao), for example.

Still...there's a continual exhortation to strike with the arm, not the body, so as not to overcommit. That screams external to me, not internal.

 

[bcbernam777]

Wing Chun is both external and internal, there is still force involved but the force is diffeernt to the majority of force in MA's. This force can more properly be called "energy" and the fact that Wing Chun is built on 3 distinct energys, that are developed by the 3 empty hand forms.

External: Sinews, Tendons, bones = Structure,

Internal: Mind force, Chi Kung = Internal energy

"Not just not using force on force but also using internal "mechanics" to generate your own force as opposed to just muscular mechanics. I dont claim to have this ability or an accurate way to explain it."

Nail on the head stuff, the whole purpose of the YJKYM (stance) in Sui Lum Tao training is to learn how to generate these internal mechanics which is why SUI LUM TAO IS ESSENTIAL. Sui Lum Tao is the engine that drives Wing Chun, and your capability in Wing Chun is directly measured by your capability in the Sui Lum Tao, too often it is simply overlooked for What is considered the meat of Wing Chun e.g. bui Jee, the mook etc

 

[bcbernam777]

Hi

I am new here and a beginner in wing chun. I wonder if in the olden days teachers like Yip Man encouraged their students to spar. I suppose my question is whether sparring with gloves/equipment constitutes tradional wing chun training?

rgrds
SL

Yes Yip Man did

 

[brothershaw]

When I read this I thought it was quite surprising, maybe even wrong. Today I had my first full lesson in Wing Chun (earlier sections of a JKD class did bits and pieces of it) and I can now see where you (or those who say this) are coming from. I'm not fully convinced yet, but it seems much more plausible to me after doing don sau (one-armed chi sao), for example.

Still...there's a continual exhortation to strike with the arm, not the body, so as not to overcommit. That screams external to me, not internal.

As I am sure you know very well in MA sometimes the way people try to explain things gives the wrong idea, happens to me all the time.
On the one hand your strikes should have full body power behind them not just arm strength.
On the other hand there has to be a certain detachment of the arm of from the body so you can let the strike "go" so you can issue the next one and the next five strikes after that.
I believe that is the point some people miss in chain punching.
YOu are training your arms to be like an UZI shooting out multiple strikes all with the same amount of energy as the rest at rapid speed with no tension. THe average beginner doesnt have the coordination to throw out the different strikes and blocks in rapid continous coordination so they are taught to chain punch at first, later they shoudl be able to replace the punches with fut saus, wong jeungs,tans saus and so on.
Back to internal/ external- to be able to throw full power strikes rapidly and with no real wind up like in the more mid range styles ( since you have no room or time in close quarters) you need another way to generate power that is not based on big movement of muscle.
I have personally felt close range strikes that had as much power or more than most people could put into any strike with a wind up, so to me its definitely real.

Bruce Lees' one inch punch, hand trapping and speed was the tip of the ice berg.

 

[Ric Flair]

As I am sure you know very well in MA sometimes the way people try to explain things gives the wrong idea, happens to me all the time.
On the one hand your strikes should have full body power behind them not just arm strength.
On the other hand there has to be a certain detachment of the arm of from the body so you can let the strike "go" so you can issue the next one and the next five strikes after that.
I believe that is the point some people miss in chain punching.
YOu are training your arms to be like an UZI shooting out multiple strikes all with the same amount of energy as the rest at rapid speed with no tension. THe average beginner doesnt have the coordination to throw out the different strikes and blocks in rapid continous coordination so they are taught to chain punch at first, later they shoudl be able to replace the punches with fut saus, wong jeungs,tans saus and so on.
Back to internal/ external- to be able to throw full power strikes rapidly and with no real wind up like in the more mid range styles ( since you have no room or time in close quarters) you need another way to generate power that is not based on big movement of muscle.
I have personally felt close range strikes that had as much power or more than most people could put into any strike with a wind up, so to me its definitely real.

Bruce Lees' one inch punch, hand trapping and speed was the tip of the ice berg.

didn't Bruce Lee change his mind and decided to continue training in his original Wing Chun back in Hong Kong right b4 he died???

 

[arnisador]

I don't think I've heard that suggested before. He was pretty committed to the idea(l)s of JKD by then, I think.

 

[ed-swckf]

didn't Bruce Lee change his mind and decided to continue training in his original Wing Chun back in Hong Kong right b4 he died???

Thats a new one on me. I don't think he ever stopped training the wing chun he had learnt though.