Discussing a Myth: On Fighting

[Paul_D]

when they discuss how after a couple of weeks on a sanitized, soft, flat surface drilling a couple of scripted moves they got that fighting part down and out of the way,

Which martial artists are these? I've certainly never heard someone discuss how they have got the fighting part out of the way after two weeks of training.

 

[drop bear]

Which martial artist are these? I've certainly never heard someone discuss how they have got the fighting part out of the way after two weeks of training.

Scars would be pretty close. But there are degrees.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

OK so I am a 33 year old man, approximately 240-250 pounds, 5' 11" with over a decade of military service and 27 years of Kenpo training, I have experience in wars and some bouncing and security work among other things. When I take a walk through a parking lot, or into an establishment serving alcohol or even just around my home what threat is going to require a "martial response" honestly it is not going to be a gold fish by comparison or even a school of gold fish, its going to be a shark or a frenzy of sharks. I think it is funny how some people bank on their future enemies being whelps they can easily overcome with a few days worth of practice when in reality if you ever do get confronted by an aggressive whelp, you can just slap them on the rump and make them stand in time out, you don't need to waste money training in a martial art for that kind of adversary. Underestimating enemies has constantly gotten people killed in my experience and that was despite the departed having decent training. If your going to take time out of your life to attend a martial arts training facility and put in the effort and energy day in and day out to learn a martial art, you may as well prepare yourself for criminals who have a long history of hurting people and knack for it, don't bet your life that because the enemy has not had martial arts training they are not a significant threat (if anything that makes them more of a threat). Best of luck to all of us on our training and lives.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Which martial artists are these? I've certainly never heard someone discuss how they have got the fighting part out of the way after two weeks of training.

I posted this right after students from a very popular Kenpo lineage made such comments. I refrained from mentioning them directly because it would serve no positive purpose, my intent is simply to draw attention to the false idea, I am a little jealous of those of you who live in a universe where you never hear this kind of thing lol

 

[Paul_D]

I posted this right after students from a very popular Kenpo lineage made such comments. I refrained from mentioning them directly because it would serve no positive purpose, my intent is simply to draw attention to the false idea, I am a little jealous of those of you who live in a universe where you never hear this kind of thing lol

So you are talking about a few of people from one style?

 

[drop bear]

I think it is because I see a huge disconnect between what real violence encompasses in its multitude of manifestations in comparison to what many martial arts practitioners do during training. I do believe in and respect progressive learning but often students never even progress to the edges or boarders of realistic training.
Violence is unscripted, it is not fair, honorable or flowery (also its painful), generally speaking rabbits don't attack lions, gold fish don't attack sharks and experienced violent human predators don't attack people that can easily defeat them either but listen to how far in fantasy land many martial arts practitioners heads are when they discuss how after a couple of weeks on a sanitized, soft, flat surface drilling a couple of scripted moves they got that fighting part down and out of the way,

Yeah but you have two skill sets. Concepts and technical skills. Concepts are about unfair fights and all the schoolyard stuff.

Technical ability generally needs to be trained in a sanitised manner.

If you need to throw 3000 punches to be able to effectively punch. You can't train bare knuckle on a brick wall. Even if your end game is to hit bare knuckle.

Then you take that usable skill and apply it to the situation. Work the concepts out.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Yeah but you have two skill sets. Concepts and technical skills. Concepts are about unfair fights and all the schoolyard stuff.

Technical ability generally needs to be trained in a sanitised manner.

If you need to throw 3000 punches to be able to effectively punch. You can't train bare knuckle on a brick wall. Even if your end game is to hit bare knuckle.

Then you take that usable skill and apply it to the situation. Work the concepts out.

Progressive training is fine as long as it eventually leads to realistic training not acceptance of mediocrity and comfort blanket statements about how "fighting" is no big deal and easily attained in a short time etc.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

So you are talking about a few of people from one style?

It has come up before from others and not just within the Kenpo Arts, I have personally witnessed it in many schools in America and Asia I guess it really matters to you how many people etc. So when I started this post it was about a popular American Kenpo lineage whose head instructor (a 10th degree black belt) is fond of making that statement and some of whose students now parrot statements along those same lines. having just heard those statements made, I thought I would post about it. I think the statement has a lot to do with commercialization, when making money and keeping paying customers happy is more important than preparing them for the real thing. (It has been some time since I posted on a large Martial Arts Forum like this one, What is your background Paul D.)

 

[hoshin1600]

Fighting is easy. It's similar to putting a wood beam on the ground and walking across it....simple. however put that same beam 5 stories up between two buildings and walk across. Not so easy when it actually matters.
Problem with most people is they have no idea about reality. It's all theory in their heads.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think it is because I see a huge disconnect between what real violence encompasses in its multitude of manifestations in comparison to what many martial arts practitioners do during training. I do believe in and respect progressive learning but often students never even progress to the edges or boarders of realistic training.
Violence is unscripted, it is not fair, honorable or flowery (also its painful), generally speaking rabbits don't attack lions, gold fish don't attack sharks and experienced violent human predators don't attack people that can easily defeat them either but listen to how far in fantasy land many martial arts practitioners heads are when they discuss how after a couple of weeks on a sanitized, soft, flat surface drilling a couple of scripted moves they got that fighting part down and out of the way,

Well, I also am unimpressed with a lot of the training that I see people doing. That doesn't mean that you are the only person who takes their training, and the realities of violence, seriously.

There is plenty of room to discuss this stuff, but in the end, it is each persons responsibility to make decisions about their training, and the results that follow.

 

[Sami Ibrahim]

Well, I also am unimpressed with a lot of the training that I see people doing. That doesn't mean that you are the only person who takes their training, and the realities of violence, seriously.

There is plenty of room to discuss this stuff, but in the end, it is each persons responsibility to make decisions about their training, and the results that follow.

I agree with you there is plenty of room to discuss this stuff and in the end each person is responsible for their own decisions and training choices, my old history teacher was fond of saying that we could do anything as long as we were willing to accept the consequences.

 

[Paul_D]

I have personally witnessed it in many schools in America and Asia

Different part of the world from me, so that explains it

 

[Headhunter]

This is an old thread but I just saw it and honestly I've trained with some top kenpo people. I started my training with lee wedlake who trained directly under ed Parker and he never said anything like that nor have any of the top people I've worked with. I'm not saying some wont say it but it's a lie a couple of individuals may say but it's absolutely not a rule for kenpo

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've no bone to pick with Kenpo on this (the O/P), but I've heard other art's instructors, not only/just Kenpo, say that sortr of thing to their student body.

Fighting skills are, to a point, frangible and decrease with time. I would say that, once a person has practiced in something for 30 years, most of those fundamentals are now ingrained and part of the person and won't be forgotten. That's not to say that the physical ability wn't erode, but if they had to erupt into violent action, they could. Then, maybe they'd fall over from exhaustion, have a stroke, have fifteen muscle pulls and joint strains, etc.

But, to tell folks, "You are now Billy Bad-*** since we've awarded you the speckled hen certificate, waved the wand of Badjiju over your hands and feet, and given you that awesome magenta belt," it's a bad idea.

As an old Kenpo person, I have worked to master the idea of hurting people without hurting myself.

 

[DanT]

It's like any sport, do you honestly believe a professional soccer player could take a year off and then come back at the top of his game? Obviously not. Skills have to be maintained otherwise they decrease. It's just like paddling a boat upstream, the moment you stop, you go back. Fighting is no different, it takes years of training to go from average joe to a "decent" fighter. I honestly believe that however long it takes to acquire a skill, it takes half as long to lose it. If it took you 1 year to go from benching 100 lbs to 200 lbs, if you stop working out, almost guaranteed within 6 months you'll be back to where you started.

 

[JP3]

If it took you 1 year to go from benching 100 lbs to 200 lbs, if you stop working out, almost guaranteed within 6 months you'll be back to where you started.

I think it's lost faster than that, actually. But, it comes back faster once you've gone up the hill, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think it's lost faster than that, actually. But, it comes back faster once you've gone up the hill, as well.

Not linearly, though, in either uphill or down. Speaking of the degradation of skill, it drops slowly (first month), then quickly (first year or two), then more slowly on a curving slope. With long-term skill development, it's never entirely lost (I haven't played soccer in many years, but can still dribble, kick, and defend as well as most folks who've played just a few years). Fitness, of course, is a different matter. All of fitness can, in fact, be lost if one tries hard enough, though there tends to be some natural inclination after many years (my legs are still quite strong, in spite of the fact I don't do leg strength work because of my knees).

 

[Steve]

Its a mistake, I think, to equate what we need and do to the skills of someone "at the top if their game."

I also think the comment abive regarding fitness is very relevant. Skills don't diminish but ones fitness to execute certainly does.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's like any sport, do you honestly believe a professional soccer player could take a year off and then come back at the top of his game? Obviously not. Skills have to be maintained otherwise they decrease. It's just like paddling a boat upstream, the moment you stop, you go back. Fighting is no different, it takes years of training to go from average joe to a "decent" fighter. I honestly believe that however long it takes to acquire a skill, it takes half as long to lose it. If it took you 1 year to go from benching 100 lbs to 200 lbs, if you stop working out, almost guaranteed within 6 months you'll be back to where you started.

I think it's lost faster than that, actually. But, it comes back faster once you've gone up the hill, as well.

Actual motor skills take a while to fade. Conditioning goes first, then reflexes. If you've trained long enough so that you can throw a good clean technical punch or kick, then that skill will last quite a long time even if you don't keep up your practice. Your timing will lose its precision, your reflexes will get slow, and you'll be sucking wind the first time you come back to a hard training session, but the fundamental movement skills don't disappear that quickly.

As far as a professional athlete taking time off and coming back "at the top of his game", you have to remember that elite professional athletes are typically pushing the limits of human capacity and their success or failure is determined by tiny percentages in their performance. An athlete operating at 50% of potential is a hobbyist. An athlete operating at 80% of potential is a high-level amateur. An athlete operating at 95% of potential may be a professional. An athlete operating at 99% of potential is an elite professional. An athlete operating at 99.9% of potential is likely a champion. Maintaining that last few percentage points or fractions of a percentage point does require constant practice and losing a couple of percentage points can mean the difference between a loss and a win even if the athlete retains 95+% of his skill.

 

[wingerjim]

Teach

In some American Kenpo circles an Instructor says "I can teach anyone to fight in a relatively quick time frame" and this is usually followed up by explaining that the reason students stay in the art beyond that point is for other personal reasons.

On the surface this may seem like a harmless statement that is elevating a pugilistic endeavor into some noble and higher purpose but actually it is not true. It is a misleading statement about fighting and can cause some to shift the focus of their training from the practical to the impractical, leaving them vulnerable.

Fighting skills are subject to the law of daily decrease, each day that you sham out of effective training is a day your skills decline. Just as Martial skill is built brick by brick, day by day with time and effort, the daily decrease comes along and kicks your building down when your no longer maintaining it. Also to say that you can teach someone to fight in a relatively quick time frame implies that their is this imagined end to fighting ability.

"OK little Billy, you have complete your fighting lessons you are now and forever the greatest fighter in the Galaxy and can focus your training on frivolous or fancy stuff at your leisure."

Sounds pretty stupid when I say it like that but that is basically what teachers are doing when they down play the importance of fighting in regards to Kenpo. Your training should always be elevating your fighting skill, your not supposed to give your students false confidence that they have "arrived" and are now capable fighters because the next stop for them is the XMAs lol

Any thoughts?

them to fight or teach them to win a fight? Big difference.