Dilemma

[Mark Lynn]

Yes, and appreciated they all are. I'm going to give the man a chance and direct any and all complaints to my (very supportive) instructor. He's not local and is very, very good about making himself the bad guy to my students to allow me to save face.

Ethan

First off I commend you for teaching at a young age, believe me I wish I started teaching at your age, instead I had just started in the martial arts.

Here is the reason I commented on this board and I believe Carol's post that Ethan is 19 years old and a fairly new instructor.

Is your instructor a daily part of your school? I mean is he handling part of the teaching duties, meeting parents, etc. etc. etc. or are you the person with the most interaction with the students?

Because if you are the one who is doing the most teaching, if your name is on the lease, if you are the one that parents are looking towards teaching and molding their kids, or trusting their sons and daughters to, or if you are the one that adults are coming to learn from then you should be the one making the decision whether this guys trains or not at your school. Even if it is a satellite or branch school, held at a Rec. Center or teaching through a Parks and Recreation Center, if you are the head instructor at that location you will be held responsible, both in the students, parents and ultimately in the laws eyes (I believe). Your head instructor should be consulted he can give you insight, but it is in your hands if you are on the front line (so to speak).

Look at it this way. If this guy or anyone else did something really bad, say he intentionally wanting to try out his BJJ arm bar lock, acts on his own and breaks a students arm, it could even be accidental, but he breaks the arm none the less. How would you feel? Would it tear you up that you he hurt another student, possibly intentionally? Or would you shrug your shoulders and say "Well my instructor cleared him, it's not my fault" when having to deal with the other student, or their parents, or the insurance company. How would you feel if later you found out from some other instructors he had done that before at another school etc. etc.

Ultimately I believe anyone who is an instructor in that type of situation will feel responsible if one of their students is hurt and there was something you could have done to prevent it. That being said, I get concerned when I read things like "I'll leave it up to my teacher", "I won't take his money until then and give him a trial period while my instructor makes the call. That's my "solution"," "Its out of my hands now and I hope it works out for him, maybe I can help". When I say I get concerned I mean for you OK? It sounds to me like you are leaving whether or not he trains at your school in your classes (or whatever) up to a third person, when I believe you should have a direct say in the matter. I also believe that you have a direct responsibility to vet the guy (or any student for that matter) in all ways possible up to and including checking out his former instructors, in order to safe guard your current students. Your instructor (and I mean no disrespect here) won't have the same concerns for your students as you do (assuming he is not actively teaching in your school and they are your primary students), no hide behind his Gi or belt rank allowing him to make the choice you need to do it.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Ethan

First off I commend you for teaching at a young age, believe me I wish I started teaching at your age, instead I had just started in the martial arts.

Here is the reason I commented on this board and I believe Carol's post that Ethan is 19 years old and a fairly new instructor.

Is your instructor a daily part of your school? I mean is he handling part of the teaching duties, meeting parents, etc. etc. etc. or are you the person with the most interaction with the students?

Because if you are the one who is doing the most teaching, if your name is on the lease, if you are the one that parents are looking towards teaching and molding their kids, or trusting their sons and daughters to, or if you are the one that adults are coming to learn from then you should be the one making the decision whether this guys trains or not at your school. Even if it is a satellite or branch school, held at a Rec. Center or teaching through a Parks and Recreation Center, if you are the head instructor at that location you will be held responsible, both in the students, parents and ultimately in the laws eyes (I believe). Your head instructor should be consulted he can give you insight, but it is in your hands if you are on the front line (so to speak).

Look at it this way. If this guy or anyone else did something really bad, say he intentionally wanting to try out his BJJ arm bar lock, acts on his own and breaks a students arm, it could even be accidental, but he breaks the arm none the less. How would you feel? Would it tear you up that you he hurt another student, possibly intentionally? Or would you shrug your shoulders and say "Well my instructor cleared him, it's not my fault" when having to deal with the other student, or their parents, or the insurance company. How would you feel if later you found out from some other instructors he had done that before at another school etc. etc.

Ultimately I believe anyone who is an instructor in that type of situation will feel responsible if one of their students is hurt and there was something you could have done to prevent it. That being said, I get concerned when I read things like "I'll leave it up to my teacher", "I won't take his money until then and give him a trial period while my instructor makes the call. That's my "solution"," "Its out of my hands now and I hope it works out for him, maybe I can help". When I say I get concerned I mean for you OK? It sounds to me like you are leaving whether or not he trains at your school in your classes (or whatever) up to a third person, when I believe you should have a direct say in the matter. I also believe that you have a direct responsibility to vet the guy (or any student for that matter) in all ways possible up to and including checking out his former instructors, in order to safe guard your current students. Your instructor (and I mean no disrespect here) won't have the same concerns for your students as you do (assuming he is not actively teaching in your school and they are your primary students), no hide behind his Gi or belt rank allowing him to make the choice you need to do it.

Context is important here...I had decided when he first contacted me that I was willing to take the chance on him. My concern was whether or not I should take the risk on behalf of the organization.

As far as a student getting hurt, well, I have insurance and it is martial arts. I would feel terrible if it was within normal training, sparring or even hoshinsul stuff but something that we don't explicitly train resulting in an injury isn't acceptable. If he wants to show off his BJJ stuff, I'm glad to see it and he can do it on me. I'm a Judoka as well and at the very least I know what the arm bar is like when it goes on.

Former/current instructors, I know everyone around here in martial arts. Happy there.

 

[ETinCYQX]

This is a real good point. Have you talked with the former school's instructors? Here is a concern as I see it.

If the guy has a bad reputation and legal issues and something happens outside of class, he stalks someone, he hurts someone (whether it was in self defense or a violent act that he over reacted, whatever I'm just speaking generally here) if it goes to court he will be tied with your school. He might not even be at your school but he could be tied to it and you be portrayed as part of the problem. Likewise if journalists would link you to sensationalize the story, lawyers might link you to get settlements and or money from you.

However if you have talked with the other school owners and did somewhat of a background check on him then you could get added insight into his character and protect yourself (or maybe have a defense) if something comes up later. Also it would help you to answer questions to your existing students if the issue is brought up, that you have checked out his character with his former instructors.

As a union rep. I have to deal with bad reputations all of the time, both with workers and management, 90% of the time it is all a bunch of crap. However I do get to see the seamier side of people and had people from both sides of line lie right to my face and tell me they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, when in fact they are lieing to me right then. The difference is the company is libel and I'm just doing my job trying to defend the employee. However you being the owner/head instructor of the school you are responsible (not your instructor who is not local), it can be you that is sued.

I am totally on board with giving the guy a 2nd chance and all of that, but this isn't a private dojo, or if I understand it right, this isn't backyard type of instruction. Instead it is a business entity that has assets, that unscrupulous people might want to go after, if this guy has a bad reputation and something happens. Also because this is a business and it has received funds from the other students to provide a safe and reliable place to train, if you haven't thoroughly checked this guy out then you might be setting yourself up for problems there. Maybe this guy isn't a pervert, pedophile, or violent, he might just start crap in your school such as spreading rumors, intimidate people, whatever; I would recommend that you ask his former instructors how he was as a student. Not just take his word for it.

It's not a private dojo, I'm tied to the organization, but I really have no assets to speak of...I rent a church hall and clear less than $15k a year teaching.

The contract requires him to outline previous charges, agree to be respectful and keep things sensible. It also explicitly states that I'm not responsible for anything he does and if the need arises I can refund his money and terminate the contract.

This is all hypothetical, by the way.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Having taught some ( in years past) who I knew to be members of certian street gangs, I must say that instructing these youths must be based on the individual and why they want to learn. If the person in question is trying to become a better person : trying to learn control of his anger, wanting an activity that makes him/her learn disiplain, needs a group around him that is not gang related that may also help him/her focus on community and family, etc. then YES instruct this person.
Each person has their own reason for learning the arts it is helpful to know why people want to study

We all take students in every day whom we may or may not know. They tell us they want to study for a vast array of reasons but do we really know what they will do with that knowledge? How many of them might be involved in spousal abuse or child abuse and we never know about it?
All one can do is ask the right questions and then make our own minds up as to what if anything we want to instuct to anyone.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Context is important here...I had decided when he first contacted me that I was willing to take the chance on him. My concern was whether or not I should take the risk on behalf of the organization.

As far as a student getting hurt, well, I have insurance and it is martial arts. I would feel terrible if it was within normal training, sparring or even hoshinsul stuff but something that we don't explicitly train resulting in an injury isn't acceptable. If he wants to show off his BJJ stuff, I'm glad to see it and he can do it on me. I'm a Judoka as well and at the very least I know what the arm bar is like when it goes on.

Former/current instructors, I know everyone around here in martial arts. Happy there.

This is where I was concerned about, you should be concerned about taking on the risk of teaching a student (any student) on behalf of your students and your welfare not an organization. I mean if you are worried about Organization XYZ which is the head umbrella organization of say your style, I think your concern there is misplaced. A large organization will have insurance assets and such but they won't be responsible, the lawyers will go after the individual's assets, your house, your families assets, insurance can handle part of it but then maybe not. And court costs fighting a lawsuit (even if it is unjust) can impact your financial well being for years to come.

I was not implying that you shouldn't take the guy on as a student, rather I was suggesting that you consider your students well being and your well being over giving the decision over to your instructor who was not part (from the sounds of it) of the daily running of the school and especially some umbrella governing organization.

In regards to the other instructors, I wasn't asking if you know them per say but rather have you talked with them about the student why he might have left etc. etc. This again was in the spirit of vetting the student to protect yourself and your students. Let's face it some students are toxic to your school. While we would like to believe everyone is great and can be a great asset to our schools some students and parents can be toxic. I know of one parent who was at a school, there was an issue, they left. They went and called other parents bad mouthing the instructor it stirred up a lot of crap for that instructor, I had almost the same thing happen to me as well. Now I make it a point if the student is coming from a local school to reach out to the former instructor and in a round about way find out about the school and the student. Hopefully it doesn't happen to me again, plus it helps to open doors to meet other instructors.

As far as a student getting hurt, I know it is the martial arts, I know people get hurt in the activity. However even if you have insurance if a student gets hurt because of another student and they have a history of miss behavior, it can lead to problems for you. Again the reason I was suggesting you to check out the student and not leave the decision up to a distant instructor.

In the end I believe it comes down to personal responsibility. I believe the local instructor, whether at a school, a Rec. Center, a Church program etc. etc. bears the responsibility for their students. Not the parent umbrella organization, nor the distant instructor.