Difficult Techs.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Back to the thread point...I've had trouble training in just about any of the bearhug techs. With a bouncer and wrassler history, none of them seem practical to me. Nobody just walks up and hugs you, or picks you up to just stand there. They are usually trying to restrain you for a buddy to take a shot, picking you up to slam you on the ground, or latcing on to you to drag you down with them. Same with Charging Ram. Against a practiced shooter doing even a drunken bull-rush, twisting out of the path with a hiayaah won't get you clear from the gathering of legs and the picking of ankles.

D.

 

[TwistofFat]

I have learned to work through almost all of the techs but still do not like Repeated Devastation - one side seems to work just fine!

 

[pete]

the rear bearhug techs work well if you can drop your weight before the attacker can pick you up or toss you around. low horse! if not, and you are bumped forward, i always liked the old Driving Elbows technique simple and effective (whoops, i forgot this is EPAK, sorry)

 

[Doc]

being a beginner one of the hardest techniques for me to learn was glancing salute. Reason being after delivering the handsword i would have troublewith my oponant getting away from me and not being able to finish the technique but thats pretty much it from me for now its great being a beginner, so much to learn

take care guys

"Otisdburg?" (Handsword?)

 

[Touch Of Death]

"Otisdburg?" (Handsword?)

Thats what I say, what handsword??
Sean

 

[Doc]

Glancing Salute teaches How to Ride the force....
~Tess

I may be wrong as to how this technique is taught in the commercial arena, however I was taught that the technique teaches how to "absorb" the force, not "ride" it. Although it may be a small symantical difference, it would appear to be on its face, fairly significant to me.

The attack as I understand it is a "push." To "ride" the push requires a certain anticipation prior to contact. There is a tendancy to in commercial AK to philosohically approach "pushes," "bear-hugs," and other contact assaults the same as "punches." Realistically they are two distinctly different kinds of assaults. Punch defenses are taught as "atempts." We see the action and react to it. "Contact" type assaults by their very nature requires them to actually occur first, before they can be reacted to.

Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone who sees a push coming should "wait" for the push so they may execute a technique. That would be ludicrous in the real world. What I am saying is if you practice to move in anticipation of the contact, then you will not learn how to deal with it (absorb it) when you don't see it coming. How you react to the contact after it is initiated is the key. This is particularly important in bear-hugs, or what we call "Mugger Hugger" assaults. Rarely are they "practiced" by most the way they actually occur. These attacks are usually a precursor to additional actions, and usually bring a certain amount of body momentum that will force a platform adjustment (foot movement), that must be "absorbed" before the defense may even begin.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I may be wrong as to how this technique is taught in the commercial arena, however I was taught that the technique teaches how to "absorb" the force, not "ride" it. Although it may be a small symantical difference, it would appear to be on its face, fairly significant to me.

The attack as I understand it is a "push." To "ride" the push requires a certain anticipation prior to contact. There is a tendancy to in commercial AK to philosohically approach "pushes," "bear-hugs," and other contact assaults the same as "punches." Realistically they are two distinctly different kinds of assaults. Punch defenses are taught as "atempts." We see the action and react to it. "Contact" type assaults by their very nature requires them to actually occur first, before they can be reacted to.

Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone who sees a push coming should "wait" for the push so they may execute a technique. That would be ludicrous in the real world. What I am saying is if you practice to move in anticipation of the contact, then you will not learn how to deal with it (absorb it) when you don't see it coming. How you react to the contact after it is initiated is the key. This is particularly important in bear-hugs, or what we call "Mugger Hugger" assaults. Rarely are they "practiced" by most the way they actually occur. These attacks are usually a precursor to additional actions, and usually bring a certain amount of body momentum that will force a platform adjustment (foot movement), that must be "absorbed" before the defense may even begin.

Thanks for the clarification, Doc. Good to get some insight on the Contact vs. Attempt thing. I am lost in a hair-split, though. Absorbing the force of the push, and riding it out, seem much the same to me. Strategically, one of the advantages of Glancing Salute was, I thought, turning apparent disadvantage into advantage. Specifically, stepping back with the pin draws the opponent off balance, making him an "easier target" for the follow-up counter-attack. If he remains on his base, then he is free to pull his hand back from the pin without much viable resistance; therefore, there is significant intent (with supportive footwork) to draw him off his center, with authority. At this point, it seems like one has gone from riding or absorbing, to somethig akin to Judo footwork to imbalance an attacker.

The absorption is transitory, as one rides the wave of force created by the push, to draw the opponent out of his stance.

I'm interested in any clarification or feedback you may have to offer.

Dave

PS -- In terms of jujutsu being embedded in Kenpo, I was also taught that an Ossi Dori, or Zed Lock (wrist turned into dorsiflexion with stressed distraction & ulnar deviation against a fulcrum point) is presented at/during the pin, complementary to the pinning action and removal from ground zero. Thoughts?

 

[KenpoTess]

Glancing Salute teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action (the push). Aside from your pivot getting you out of the line of attack it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.

*snip*
As the opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, you step forward and slightly to your left with your left foot into a left neutral bow. Pivot to your right into a right forward bow (to ride the force of your opponent's push).....*end snip*

Note. Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of his push.

The way I was taught.


~Tess

 

[Touch Of Death]

Glancing Salute teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action (the push). Aside from your pivot getting you out of the line of attack it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.

*snip*
As the opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, you step forward and slightly to your left with your left foot into a left neutral bow. Pivot to your right into a right forward bow (to ride the force of your opponent's push).....*end snip*

Note. Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of his push.

The way I was taught.


~Tess

And when do you execute that left handsword?

 

[Nick Ellerton]

Well thank you very much ladies and gentleman for your regards to this problem. But addressing the whole handsword thing i th ink i may have worded it wrong. What i meant was the enitial glancing strike. How i was taught it, was it is "similar" to a handsword. i am not argueing about what is right and what is wrong because i simply do not no, plus i was always under the impression that Kenpo or Mr Parkers kenpo was taught the same way, obviously i was wrong cos reading all of your thread additions it was the wrong assumption to make, but thank you for taking the time to address this matter. Oh yeah and on the riding the push topic isnt that called purposful compliance? im not sure but im asking. thanks guys

 

[Michael Billings]

As I have it:

8. GLANCING SALUTE (Front right hand cross push)

1. Standing naturally while your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, step forward and slightly to your left (toward 11:00) with your left foot into a left neutral bow (facing 12:00). Immediately pivot to your right into a right forward bow toward 3:00 as your right arm pins your opponent's right wrist to the right side of your chest. Simultaneous with this action have your left inward vertical forearm strike against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a break. (This action should cause your opponent to turn counterclockwise, as well as cancel his Width Zones).

2. Pivot to your left (toward 12:00) into a left forward bow as your left hand pins your opponent's right arm to his body while simultaneously striking to your opponent's jaw with a right thrusting heel palm strike. (The action of the left pinning hand should bring your opponent's head down and forward into your right heel palm strike. This strike should force his head up and back).

3. Have your right hand circle to the right of your opponent's face as it then hooks around and back of his neck. With your right hand now formed in the shape of a crane, immediately pull your opponent's head down and to the ground (while Anchoring your right elbow). Simultaneously have your right knee kick to your opponent's stomach. (Your opponent's strength should be waning, and his feet may move back and away from you).



4. Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow, as your right knee checks the inside of your opponent's right knee in the process. Simultaneously deliver a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's face, as your left hand pins your opponent's right arm to his body. (This should cause your opponent's head to move up and back).

5. Do a right front crossover, covering out toward 7:30.

Then the Notes I have and teach on the technique follow:

8. GLANCING SALUTE

1. THE NAME: The name of the technique stems from your opponent's ricocheting push. As stated above a "Salute" is symbolic of a push.

2. THE THEME: This technique teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action. Aside from your pivot getting you out of the Line of Attack it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.

3. THE ATTACK: The Ideal Phase of this technique commences with your opponent to the front. As he steps forward with his right foot his right push travels across to your right shoulder. Study some of these additional What If factors:

a. Your opponent's left leg is forward.

b. Your opponent attacks with full body momentum.

c. Your opponent's push is directed toward your stomach.

4. Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of the push.

5. If your opponent is stronger than you, it will be difficult to break his right elbow using only the force of your arms. Therefore, you must learn to maximize your efforts by harmoniously utilizing the force of your entire body.

a. Contour your left inward block along the left side of your body.

b. Thrust your inward block from its Point of Origin.

c. Strike with the proper Angle of Contact at your opponent's elbow joint.

d. Do not inhale prior to beginning your initial move. Simply move.

6. A common error on the second move of this technique is to neglect driving your opponent's right arm down and toward him, prior to shooting your right heel palm to his chin. You should not circle your right hand around his right arm to strike his face. This violates the principles of Point of Origin and Economy of Motion.



7. When delivering your right knee kick to your opponent's stomach, be sure that your right anchored elbow assists you in bringing him down into your knee. Compatibly work both forces to counter balance your action. Do not overreach with your knee kick.

Not sure if any of you are interested in these notes or technique explanation, but it gives a little more insight on what Mr. Parker was doing with the unpublished manuals in '89 and '90. What is important to me is the way in which he and his "think tank" group, broke down the techniques, analyzed and labeled the 'Motion" component with specific principles supporting the concepts or theories he postulated and formalized.

It ain't what you do ... it's how you do it. (-Me 1995)

-Michael

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well thank you very much ladies and gentleman for your regards to this problem. But addressing the whole handsword thing i th ink i may have worded it wrong. What i meant was the enitial glancing strike. How i was taught it, was it is "similar" to a handsword. i am not argueing about what is right and what is wrong because i simply do not no, plus i was always under the impression that Kenpo or Mr Parkers kenpo was taught the same way, obviously i was wrong cos reading all of your thread additions it was the wrong assumption to make, but thank you for taking the time to address this matter. Oh yeah and on the riding the push topic isnt that called purposful compliance? im not sure but im asking. thanks guys

In that case the answer is in the name of the tech, Glancing. Provided you are cancelling his H,W, and D zones with your left hand (and left leg) and your purpose is to hook the head, then you know not to send this guy flying with a solid heel palm strike. That is, the heel palm is an insert on the way to the hook.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Thanks for the clarification, Doc. Good to get some insight on the Contact vs. Attempt thing. I am lost in a hair-split, though. Absorbing the force of the push, and riding it out, seem much the same to me.

Well yes it can be a bit disconcerting, but as I feel you know how little it takes to disrupt, or breakdown the human body, the “little” things can become huge in interaction. I remember having a contentious discussion with a well-known and vocal Kenpo “professor” regarding the subject of “bending over” versus “bent over” when struck in the lower portion of the body.

I attempted to explain that, although upon completion the postures may appear the same, “how” you arrived at any posture would be a serious factor in what is available and to the vulnerability of the body. This is another one of those type issues that on surface appear rather minor, but actually has huge implications.

Strategically, one of the advantages of Glancing Salute was, I thought, turning apparent disadvantage into advantage.

Here you are definitely on point in my opinion. It’s the incremental “how” that’s important.

Specifically, stepping back with the pin draws the opponent off balance,

As Ed Parker would say to me, “Aha!” Let’s talk about “stepping back.” The phrase would indicate a voluntary initiated action of the defender. But if you are pushed firmly you may be forced to step as a reaction, therefore you have no control over the situation until you “Survive The Initial Assault™” and “absorb” the action.

At this point, it seems like one has gone from riding or absorbing, to something akin to tai sabaaki...footwork to imbalance an attacker.

I feel you’re on target, but I go back to “absorbing” over “riding.” In Ed Parker’s published definition “Riding” infers that its execution is “…requiring (you) go with an attack …while standing in place or while stepping.”

What is not addressed is the actual severity of the attack will dictate your ability to “ride,” and also will determine “what” is possible to “absorb.” A cross push, as this technique defense suggests, can be so severe that you may be dislodged from your platform and actually spun around, or it may be so mild that you could “ride” the push with no footwork. The size, and gender of the attacker and victim as well play a part. Women because of a slightly different pelvic bone, (as well as other factors) have more problems in “riding, “ or “absorbing.”

“Riding is something you must do “after” you absorb the attack. So it is a later stage of the action. In this type of assault, in practice it must be allowed to take place, then “absorbed” and then finally you may “ride” it. You may not “ride” an attack until you reacquire some measure of control over your own body, which I presume you lost momentarily when you were attacked un-expectantly. In the commercial arts, there is a tendency to begin to “ride” or move “before” any of the attacks have occurred therefore turning all of the attacks into attempts. Obviously this is a huge disadvantage in training having never addressed the completed assault in practice.

So my position is simply, “Before you may ’ride’ any attack, you must regain control by ‘absorbing’ it first. How you ‘absorb” requires specific body mechanics that also are not addressed in the commercial art.

Bear hugs, as another example, bring body momentum that must be “absorbed” first, before any counter may occur to prevent further action on the attackers part.

Thanks Dr. D.

(more)

 

[Doc]

PS -- In terms of jujutsu being embedded in Kenpo, I was also taught that an Ossi Dori, or Zed Lock (wrist turned into dorsiflexion with stressed distraction & ulnar deviation against a fulcrum point) is presented at/during the pin, complementary to the pinning action and removal from ground zero. Thoughts?

The methodology I was taught would preclude that type of action. Mr. Parker taught me to utilize a “Slap-check” action with my right hand against my left shoulder to “Pin” and “hyper-extend” the arm forcing loss of structural integrity by bending the “Radial Line” reference points of the shoulders, and misaligning the hips.

Ed Parker said "jiujitsu" is not embedded in Kenpo, but jiu-jitsu comes from Kenpo, therefore it is simply where its supposed to be to the knowledgeable. Jiujitsu comes from Chin-na, and Chin-Na is a componant of all Chinese Arts. After coming to the mainland, Parker abandoned virtually all of the Japanese influence on his art in favor of the Chinese Lessons he was learning. That is when the name changed to "Chinese Kenpo" and he wrote "Secrets." When circumstances changed and dictated he needed to spread a commercial product, he changed the name to "Kenpo Karate," adding the word "karate" for its public familiarity. He often said the term "Kenpo Karate" is about as close as you can get to an oxymoron.

 

[Doc]

Glancing Salute teaches How to Ride the force....

~Tess

Well let me put it another way. Can you execute the technique the way it is written and "ride" the initial assault, if you begin with your eyes closed? If not than you are "anticipating" the action and are moving before the push is completed and therefore you are turning it into an "attempted push" and not defending an actual push at all.

With my students I present "Triggered Salute" and "Glancing Salute." They must begin with their eyes closed and the attacker has their choice. Right shoulder or left shoulder. You won't know until you are firmly pushed. I guarantee you won't be able to do the technique as written stepping forward etc. Parker forced me to do the same thing over thirty years ago. I failed miserably, until the mechanisms were changed.

 

[KenpoTess]

And when do you execute that left handsword?

There is NO handsword in Glancing Salute...

 

[Shodan]

Yes- you are right. You guys got me thinking on this.......I am in the process of re-learning a lot of my stuff again and taking off the rust that has accumulated in my downtime since pregnancy, etc. In looking back at my notes, I see that I did NOT learn the handsword in the original technique- it was an insert we worked with at a seminar and then again in class. Sheesh!! My mind is just not what it used to be.........if I could only just remember everything as taught. Also saw another insert........anyone practice the right nerve strike to attacker's right arm just before the break?

Sorry for the confusion.........off to etch off more rust!!

:idunno:

 

[Shodan]

PS........we were practicing flowing Glancing Salute into the tail end of Snapping Twig with that handsword insert and there was no knee done.

:asian: :karate:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes- you are right. You guys got me thinking on this.......I am in the process of re-learning a lot of my stuff again and taking off the rust that has accumulated in my downtime since pregnancy, etc. In looking back at my notes, I see that I did NOT learn the handsword in the original technique- it was an insert we worked with at a seminar and then again in class. Sheesh!! My mind is just not what it used to be.........if I could only just remember everything as taught. Also saw another insert........anyone practice the right nerve strike to attacker's right arm just before the break?

Sorry for the confusion.........off to etch off more rust!!

:idunno:

Another neat insert is to drive your knee down through the pubic bone after the intial knee strike. :uhyeah:
Sean (www.iemat.com)

 

[pete]

very interesting to see the various interpretations, training practices and detailed notes on these techniques. a true value of this medium is the ability for those of us who may never meet, to share.

in my interpretation of glancing salute, the glancing refers to the right arm glancing over the left during the trap/break/clear counterclockwise rotation of the left arm to deliver a linear palm heel to the attackers jaw. this would be consistent with the glancing eye-spear in, well, glancing spear.
salute seemed always to refer to heel palms, not nessecarily symbolic of a push, since thrusting salute is in response to a kick.

in reading the absorbing/riding discussion, i can't help myself but to draw upon tai chi principles of yielding and adhering. in yielding we allow the attacker to exhaust the energy of the push (or punch for that matter), by removing the resistance of the target... whether we step forward, or back, we are not really advancing nor retreating, but repositioning ourselves to absorb the attacking force. adhering comes when the attackers force is no longer a threat and we stick with it (ride it?) to ultimately redirect it back to the attacker. I believe Ed Parker said "freeing yourself from your opponent gives him the freedom to hit you"... this is where doc says: kenpo is tai chi! and the games begin... sorry?

Riding is something you must do “after” you absorb the attack

Doc, I would have thought, given my interpretation, that riding is something you do "while" absorbing, to prevent "retreating", the antithesis to yielding... in other words, wouldn't you begin absorbing first, but also begin to ride as you continue to absorb and continue to ride through your counter?