Differing kias

[VSanhodo]

There are no vocal pronunciation of letters or words that 'constrict' the throat.

I would have to agree and yet disagree Doc. I did say that hard sounds constrict the throat. I do agree that they do not. I probably should have said that some hard sounds or note tend to open the throat better and dont make the tongue rise to the top of the mouth thereby constricting air flow.


The vocal pitch of a 'kiai' do not affect structural integrity or "rooting" positively or negatively.

Perhaps we are seeing this from a different angle. I do fee that mere breathing does affect your root sturcture. In our art we learn that when you exhale your body tends to become heavy making you more firmly planted. We use breathing to our advantage as well. Same is true when striking a person. When a person for example is struck in the stomach and they exhale they become heavy and in some cases we use or time attacks which are focused on making the person inhale. Each has its own application. Some throws are easier when the person inhales and some are easier when they exhale.
Now I will say it is clearly possible we are both saying the same thing, I Tomato you say TooMATTOo heheh. Clealry no offense meant.
Please lets continue this if at all possible. I am certainly open to and repsect any and all views and opinons.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. By the way. Im sure I havent used the quote feature properly, sorry Still kinda new to these fangled machines.

San

Unfortunately, too true. Your perpesctive is traditional Okinawa/Japanese where the shout or yell 'kiai' in martial arts has its roots in Japanese Culture. So much so it is assigned a separate term to reflect that position. In the older Chinese Philosophy however, there is no separate "shout" component. There is simply "breathing," and there is a right and wrong way for various circumstances.

I agree with you on this by the way. I use kiai as a means to teach but more importantly stress proper breathing over yelling and screaming. I placed a large ammount of emphasis on Breathing not on Yelling. Great point, Thanks

San

 

[kenpoworks]

The shouting of the "word" "kiai", has more to do with western interpretation of its funtion, but, the Japanese (Shoto & Wado), Okinawan (Uechi) and Chinese (White Crane) systems that I have had exsposure to, stress the breathing aspect when teaching the "kiai".
Rich

 

[Doc]

Doc - "There are no vocal pronunciation of letters or words that 'constrict' the throat."

I would have to agree and yet disagree Doc. I did say that hard sounds constrict the throat. I do agree that they do not. I probably should have said that some hard sounds or note tend to open the throat better and dont make the tongue rise to the top of the mouth thereby constricting air flow.

Sorry, it's just when you speak in "physics and bio-mechanical functions" of human anatomy, specificity is a must in our methodology.

Doc - "The vocal pitch of a 'kiai' do not affect structural integrity or "rooting" positively or negatively."

Perhaps we are seeing this from a different angle. I do fee that mere breathing does affect your root sturcture. In our art we learn that when you exhale your body tends to become heavy making you more firmly planted. We use breathing to our advantage as well. Same is true when striking a person. When a person for example is struck in the stomach and they exhale they become heavy and in some cases we use or time attacks which are focused on making the person inhale. Each has its own application. Some throws are easier when the person inhales and some are easier when they exhale.

Now I will say it is clearly possible we are both saying the same thing, I Tomato you say TooMATTOo heheh. Clealry no offense meant.
Please lets continue this if at all possible. I am certainly open to and repsect any and all views and opinons.

No we are not saying the same thing, but I do suspect we mean the same thing. I said "kiai doesn't affect ..." but your explanation, which is correct speaks of "breathing." "Kiai is only one aspect of "breathing" and doesn't affect rooting or stability by a variance of pitch, but certainly breathing does. I'm just being a tad more specific then you are, but I think we're going in the same direction. Sorry, its a necessity from my teaching.

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. By the way. Im sure I havent used the quote feature properly, sorry Still kinda new to these fangled machines.

I know what you mean, I'm still trying to figure out some of this stuff.

Doc - "Your perpesctive is traditional Okinawa/Japanese where the shout or yell 'kiai' in martial arts has its roots in Japanese Culture. So much so it is assigned a separate term to reflect that position. In the older Chinese Philosophy however, there is no separate "shout" component. There is simply "breathing," and there is a right and wrong way for various circumstances."

I agree with you on this by the way. I use kiai as a means to teach but more importantly stress proper breathing over yelling and screaming. I placed a large ammount of emphasis on Breathing not on Yelling. Great point, Thanks

YOUR great point sir. I hope others were listening as well.

 

[VSanhodo]

Hi Doc

Yes, I agree and stand corrected, We are not saying the samething. We do however seem to mean the samething or at least we are headed in the same direction.

Thanks

San

 

[Doc]

Hi Doc

Yes, I agree and stand corrected, We are not saying the samething. We do however seem to mean the samething or at least we are headed in the same direction.

Thanks

San

Most definitely. It was a great amount of consternation to Mr. Parker that he was unable to replace the word "kiai" in his Kenpo Terminology, as he moved to an all "English Only" approach. It is the only Japanese Term he "accepted" but never approved. He would chuckle to himself to see and hear students yelling "kiai!" He often said, "If I told you to growl, would you say growl?"

 

[Kenpoist]

I prefer SSSST! when making strikes - like what a boxer does (it contracts my stomach muscles to strenghten my inner shield). I use an EUCE! for kata strike emphasis.

To each his own!

 

[Doc]

I prefer SSSST! when making strikes - like what a boxer does (it contracts my stomach muscles to strenghten my inner shield). I use an EUCE! for kata strike emphasis.

To each his own!

 

[Hollywood1340]

To DKL comment, ever seen these kids at tourneys who you KNOW are constipated when they Kiai? Sneezing out..never mind. Back on topic.

 

[eyebeams]

I would be fascinated to learn how one can make a k or hard c noise without closing the airway at the throat or pallate, so that a "hard" sound like it cannot restrict the airway, as claimed.

 

[Xequat]

Maybe that choking sound you hear in German would be close. I prefer the Hoo-wah from Scent of a Woman, personally as a kiai.

Seriously, though, there is an art called kiaijitsu, www.kiaijitsu.com, where they teach different things like using an "ing" sound when pulling and a "ho" sound for pushing, and various other sounds for different things, but I don't really understand it that well...just sort of interesting to me at this point.

 

[Doc]

Maybe that choking sound you hear in German would be close. I prefer the Hoo-wah from Scent of a Woman, personally as a kiai.

Seriously, though, there is an art called kiaijitsu, www.kiaijitsu.com, where they teach different things like using an "ing" sound when pulling and a "ho" sound for pushing, and various other sounds for different things, but I don't really understand it that well...just sort of interesting to me at this point.

Yes I know. The history of the arts show that the Japanese as well as others have always taken a portion of the knowledge, and turn it into a separate art. The Chinese simply call it "breathing correctly" and is part of the way you teach a student to move and perform.

 

[kempo108]

has anyone heard or seen kias that stop a man in his tracks? i attended a seminar from one of dillman's off shoots. the name slips me from the moment. he took people from the seminar, had them stand in front of them one at a time. he told them to get really mad and then try to punch him in the stomach. as the punched he did a kia and they drop to the floor before they finished the punch. he claimed the pitch of the kia was very important in this demostration. he only did it to 3 people and he didnt pick anyone from our school. i think its a mental thing, making you angry and then attacking. i am curious if anyone has experienced this.

 

[DRMiller]

For my beginning students I used to just have them yell the word Kiai to get them used to doing it until they progressed enough to develope their own sound. Then we went to a tournament a while back and the hosting school's master questioned why my students were using the word for yell instead of actually yelling or in other words using their own sound for a Kiai. I never thought it made a difference and it was how I was taught as a beginner too. Now so as not to offend anyone I teach them to develope thier own Kiai from the start.

 

[Doc]

Now so as not to offend anyone I teach them to develope thier own Kiai from the start.

Its not about offending someone as long as you know what you're doing and why in the best interest of your students. If you must change your methods, do so because they are correct, not because someone else may be offended. Your responsibility always should be providing students with the best information and training you are capable of delivering, exclusive of others "opinions and or objections."

 

[mj-hi-yah]

The term kiai simply means to yell or shout.

I was taught that the term Kiai meant to adjust the spirit through proper breathing. So I agree with your later post where you say that it has more to do with breathing than yelling or shouting. Although it can be loud it is my understanding that it has more to do with emptying the lungs of air and proper breathing - using the lower portion of the lungs, whereas a yell does not necessarily do that and can leave the throat sore, because it does not come from deep within the lungs.

It was a great amount of consternation to Mr. Parker that he was unable to replace the word "kiai" in his Kenpo Terminology, as he moved to an all "English Only" approach. It is the only Japanese Term he "accepted" but never approved. He would chuckle to himself to see and hear students yelling "kiai!" He often said, "If I told you to growl, would you say growl?"

What a great sense of humor Mr. Parker must have had.

There is simply "breathing," and there is a right and wrong way for various circumstances.

This is one of the more interesting statements in this thread to me as I am always just trying to remember the most important rule, which is to remember to simply breathe and not hold my breath. This brings a question to mind. Is there a point in a person's breathing that makes them more or less vulnerable to a strike?
I read somewhere that a kiai will cause your body to be denser and make you less vulnerable to having the "wind knocked out of you". Has anyone tested this or even heard of this? If this is true, is the best time to strike a person during their inhale?

 

[Doc]

I was taught that the term Kiai meant to adjust the spirit through proper breathing. So I agree with your later post where you say that it has more to do with breathing than yelling or shouting. Although it can be loud it is my understanding that it has more to do with emptying the lungs of air and proper breathing - using the lower portion of the lungs, whereas a yell does not necessarily do that and can leave the throat sore, because it does not come from deep within the lungs.

Emptying the lungs are a part of it, but proper breathing requires exhalation and the generation of energy and strength to be sychronous.

What a great sense of humor Mr. Parker must have had.

You have no idea.The bulk of his jokes were "guy jokes" and would get me "banned" from this forum.

This is one of the more interesting statements in this thread to me as I am always just trying to remember the most important rule, which is to remember to simply breathe and not hold my breath.

An excellent idea if being effective is on your list of goals.

This brings a question to mind. Is there a point in a person's breathing that makes them more or less vulnerable to a strike?

All day long when you "hold" your breathing or inhale.

I read somewhere that a kiai will cause your body to be denser and make you less vulnerable to having the "wind knocked out of you".

Not denser but less susceptible, to injury or discomfort. It is very difficult to "knock the wind out of you" when the wind is already gone or leaving.

Has anyone tested this or even heard of this?

Anyone that has ever played contact sports and found out the hard way.

If this is true, is the best time to strike a person during their inhale?

Ya think? The body is incapable of aligning itself for structural integrity of its many parts to compensate for, or alleviate bounancy during the inhalation cycle of breathing.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Emptying the lungs are a part of it, but proper breathing requires exhalation and the generation of energy and strength to be sychronous.

That seems like a useful and reasonable distinction. Should the synchronization of the kiai and strike come at the point, or exact moment, the exhalation is completed? For instance, the kiai begins as a punch or kick begins to extend and ends on impact of the kick or punch. Is this the reason some propose the kiai be kept to a one syllable sound like "HUH"? Would a longer kiai lose it's effectiveness because of timing, in that it would be disproportionate to the time it would take to execute a strike? Also, does the kiai channel or aid in channeling the energy, or is there a mental component that you are aware of that is separate from the breath that causes the energy and strength to be synchronous with the exhalation, or kiai?

You have no idea.The bulk of his jokes were "guy jokes" and would get me "banned" from this forum.

Well alrighty then.:lookie: You'll just have to keep them to yourself I guess.

An excellent idea if being effective is on your list of goals.

Yes LOL I'm pushing it to the top of the list!

Not denser but less susceptible, to injury or discomfort. It is very difficult to "knock the wind out of you" when the wind is already gone or leaving. Anyone that has ever played contact sports and found out the hard way.

I've had the wind knocked out of me in sports and in MA training...it's not fun. So if you know you are going to hit the ground, or be hit and you can get it out in time a kiai's your friend, eh?

Ya think? The body is incapable of aligning itself for structural integrity of its many parts to compensate for, or alleviate bounancy during the inhalation cycle of breathing.

Yes especially now I think it. What does it mean to alleviate bounancy? Can you please explain that?

Thanks Doc! :asian:

 

[Doc]

That seems like a useful and reasonable distinction. Should the synchronization of the kiai and strike come at the point, or exact moment, the exhalation is completed? For instance, the kiai begins as a punch or kick begins to extend and ends on impact of the kick or punch. Is this the reason some propose the kiai be kept to a one syllable sound like "HUH"? Would a longer kiai lose it's effectiveness because of timing, in that it would be disproportionate to the time it would take to execute a strike? Also, does the kiai channel or aid in channeling the energy, or is there a mental component that you are aware of that is separate from the breath that causes the energy and strength to be synchronous with the exhalation, or kiai?
Well alrighty then.:lookie: You'll just have to keep them to yourself I guess.
Yes LOL I'm pushing it to the top of the list!

You do realize that's about 7 or 8 different questions right? Simply - breathing is a function that supports body function. If there was only one moment in time when it would be effective, than it would be extremely inefficient. The Japanese philosophy is along those lines. The Chinese suggest the "powerstroke" or ehalation breathing cycle has validity in its entirety in supporting body function.

I've had the wind knocked out of me in sports and in MA training...it's not fun. So if you know you are going to hit the ground, or be hit and you can get it out in time a kiai's your friend, eh?
Yes especially now I think it. What does it mean to alleviate bounancy? Can you please explain that?

When the body's many parts are incapable of coming together in a singular "associated" function, they are "disassociated or "apart" from each other and "float" from their assigned associated positions of structure and thus the term "bounancy" meaning to "float or not sink or settle." Can I go now?

 

[marlon]

I have been taught differing kiais/ breathing for lifting, percussion striking, penetrating strikes, pulling...etc. The sound is my own and it is not set...but the breathing is a given. Knocking someone out with sound is beyond my understanding and stretching my belief system at this time


Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[mj-hi-yah]

You do realize that's about 7 or 8 different questions right?

I'm making up for lost time, but I only see 4. Ok, so after careful examination a kiai is just a kiai.

Simply - breathing is a function that supports body function. If there was only one moment in time when it would be effective, than it would be extremely inefficient. The Japanese philosophy is along those lines. The Chinese suggest the "powerstroke" or ehalation breathing cycle has validity in its entirety in supporting body function.

Interesting differentiation.

When the body's many parts are incapable of coming together in a singular "associated" function, they are "disassociated or "apart" from each other and "float" from their assigned associated positions of structure and thus the term "bounancy" meaning to "float or not sink or settle." Can I go now?

I got it thank you. :asian: You are always free to go.