Differing kias

[Michael Billings]

Sigung LaBounty has an excellent article on his site re: the Kia.

Here is a breif exerpt from http://thesigung.com/kiai.html

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[font=geneva, sans-serif]The word "kiai" is composed of two words "Ki" energy, and "Ai" union, so then kiai means the union of energy. From there interpretations abound on kiai. My interpretation is that of the late Zen Master and Archer Deshimaru Taisen, who refers to it as "..one cry, one instant containing all space-time, the whole cosmos" [/font]

[font=geneva, sans-serif]When I first heard this I scratched my head and I remember saying to myself that I had thought it was just a yell. In Judo, we were never really instructed on the meaning, we just did it. Kenpo too, it was glossed over even though every human being especially athletes, understand the concept of adding power through breath. ...
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Part II of the article can be found http://thesigung.com/kiai2.html

-Michael

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[47MartialMan]

Sneezing Kia...yes, a sneeze is a natural/reflexive body function. But to spray stuff and call it a Kia, is remote.

 

[BallistikMike]

I always viewd a "Kiai" as a short, sharp sound that helped expell air quickly out of the body as well as tighten up the core muscle groups so impact of the blow if timed correctly would be "just that much harder".

Then as I began to play with sound and its relationship with breathing and how the various sounds you can make, when expelled sharply or slowly or deeply or with hhhuuhhh sounds, as oppossed to eeettt sounds will effect the speed or even the targeting of your strike(s). Has anyone else experienced this or tried it?

Ive noticed that a constant growl followed by a traditional "kiai" during impact followed by a sharp or slow intake using various sounds helps speed up or slow down my movements.

I have come to have so many different sounds throughout my workouts that I dont have a specific one period. Kind of just allow the breathing and sound to embrace the strike/kick or maneuver I am doing.

 

[Doc]

Keep in mind gentlemen, that the definition(s) explored so far are Japanese term(s) and their Japanese understanding of breathing, associated with their particular philosophy of martial applications. Their approach is dedicated to the "one punch kill" philosophy, with the kiai application once expended, requires significant time to apply again. This eliminates the "quick multiple strike" applications associated with the Chinese philosophy of sequencing. Further, the Chinese do not really have a "kiai" per se, instead focusing on "proper breathing" for the particular application, and the creation of internal energy. My point simpy is; in every interpretation and version of Kenpo in the Ed Parker Lineage AFTER the original Kenpo-Karate, the word has no real appropriate meaning, in spite of its continued use.

 

[47MartialMan]

Keep in mind gentlemen, that the definition(s) explored so far are Japanese term(s) and their Japanese understanding of breathing, associated with their particular philosophy of martial applications. Their approach is dedicated to the "one punch kill" philosophy, with the kiai application once expended, requires significant time to apply again. This eliminates the "quick multiple strike" applications associated with the Chinese philosophy of sequencing. Further, the Chinese do not really have a "kiai" per se, instead focusing on "proper breathing" for the particular application, and the creation of internal energy. My point simpy is; in every interpretation and version of Kenpo in the Ed Parker Lineage AFTER the original Kenpo-Karate, the word has no real appropriate meaning, in spite of its continued use.

Hmmn...yet for focused power, what to arts outside Japanese/Karate, use?

 

[eyebeams]

Well, if you people don't even know how your body functions during a sneeze, how on earth are you going to teach people the proper method or sound for a kia?

DarK LorD

I wouldn't use the metaphor of sneeze just because you reflexively close your eyes when you sneeze.

As for the sound, pitch is meningful because your pitch changes depending on how you exhale. Exhaling from the chest provides a higher pitch than exhaling from the diaphragm (try this yourself). That's why a big kiai moves between a high and low pitch (in either direction, though more people seem to find high to low more natural).

 

[47MartialMan]

I wouldn't use the metaphor of sneeze just because you reflexively close your eyes when you sneeze.

As for the sound, pitch is meningful because your pitch changes depending on how you exhale. Exhaling from the chest provides a higher pitch than exhaling from the diaphragm (try this yourself). That's why a big kiai moves between a high and low pitch (in either direction, though more people seem to find high to low more natural).

Dont forget the "watery eyes" and weird body "contortions".

 

[Doc]

Hmmn...yet for focused power, what to arts outside Japanese/Karate, use?

Proper breathing.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I wouldn't use the metaphor of sneeze just because you reflexively close your eyes when you sneeze.

As for the sound, pitch is meningful because your pitch changes depending on how you exhale. Exhaling from the chest provides a higher pitch than exhaling from the diaphragm (try this yourself). That's why a big kiai moves between a high and low pitch (in either direction, though more people seem to find high to low more natural).

Hmm, it's obvious you didn't read my initial post where I said " A CONTROLLED SNEEZE". I always emphasize the point of not being able to keep your eyes open during a sneeeze. Next time, try reading all of what I'm saying not just your interpretation.


DarK LorD

 

[47MartialMan]

Proper breathing.

Yeah, threw that to see if anyone was awake

 

[Michael Billings]

When I studied with a very traditional Chinese Kung-Fu instructor, if we were doing a form, there were specific and different sounds that went with each application of power. Chi and the application thereof was associated with the verbalization, well not really a verbalization, but an audible expression of energy and the type being utilized.

WAY OVER MY HEAD AT THE TIME. I was in my 20's and am now 50, and a little more skeptical in some ways, but open to new thoughts and ideas in other ways as I find different ways of applying power that I just was oblivious to when I was younger. Seeing was not always believing. So now I would really like to revisit my old Sifu and friend about this sometime. But over a beer, not over me in a low cat or fighting horse stance.

-Michael

 

[kenpoworks]

The introduction of kiai (the basic yell) in class (especially for beginners and children) can be the first step, the starting point for them to start considering proper breath control.
The use of qigong, tai chi and some Okinawan based systems of breathing can "breath new life" (ptp) into the practice of Kenpo forms & sets, this is of course is just an opinion based on personal practice and a bit of cross system experience.
It is a step side ways from performance based Forms practice and does suit some people and not others.
But it has helped me unerstand that sequence completion is not the important thing..... must be an age thing.

Random thought Richard.

 

[eyebeams]

Hmm, it's obvious you didn't read my initial post where I said " A CONTROLLED SNEEZE". I always emphasize the point of not being able to keep your eyes open during a sneeeze. Next time, try reading all of what I'm saying not just your interpretation.

DarK LorD

I read your initial post. I just don't care for the metaphor, d00d, because it applies to one aspect of sneezing but not a whole bunch of others. It has nothing to do with critiquing your ability to get the message across to your students -- I just don't care for the metaphor myself. Relax a tad.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Sigung LaBounty has an excellent article on his site re: the Kia.

Here is a breif exerpt from http://thesigung.com/kiai.html

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Part II of the article can be found http://thesigung.com/kiai2.html

-Michael

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I'm interested in reading this article. Thanks Michael. I had the pleasure of spending a good deal of time with Sigung LaBounty :asian:this weekend and he taught me that for a woman a good Kia is to shout, "Stop It!" Aside from the already mentioned benefits of the Kia, I really like this idea because it reflects how I felt when I was being attacked so it's natural to want to say that. It also gives a verbal clue to an attacker to stop and alerts possible bystanders to the attack.

 

[Kodora]

Wow, I'd no idea there were so many angles to this topic; thanks for all the input!



Still learning,

Kodora

 

[47MartialMan]

Wow, I'd no idea there were so many angles to this topic; thanks for all the input!



Still learning,

Kodora

Hmmn I'm nearing 50, i am still learning also.

 

[Brother John]

According to my sweet wife..
I've not yet begun to learn......


HA!!



Your Brother
John

 

[47MartialMan]

According to my sweet wife..
I've not yet begun to learn......


HA!!



Your Brother
John

Depends on what she means by what lessons

 

[VSanhodo]

Hi Folks

Interesting topic and responses. I have to say I agree with some of the responses and respectfully disagree with most.
Allow me to elaborate.
The term Kiai simply means to yell or shout. To this day I get a kick watching and listening to ppl Yell the word Yell/Shout in a different language. Kiai is not only an action but a command of ececution it is what you are supposed to do and an area where you place emphais. In modern martial arts, I see practitioners yell and shout all through thier repective forms. Now perhaps that is how they do it now but is not and was not the original intent.
When I was coming up under the late Shizyura Tanaka Sensei and the late Soke Kuniba we had lengthly discussions about this very topic. Their belief was and is mine now that an easy way to remember how to Kiai (Yell / Shout) properly was to simply use your vowel sounds or any combination of. A. E. I. O. U and yes sometimes Y.
As I was taught and use to teach the vowels allow the throat to not costrict therby allowing air from the diaphram to escape. the use of H or K and a few other sounds constrict the throat and dont allow the air to be properly dispelled from the diaphram. Now is this etched in stone. No, of course not but it is what I believe to be a good basic rule of thumb. so far as reason why we yell and shout. Dear lord the list can go on.
Helps to tense the body, Well ok
Helps to give you more power, Well ok.
Helps to scare your opponet, Hmmmmmm maybe
Gives you courage, Maybe again

Not to mention the little talked about lost art of KiaiJitsu where a shout could creat harmonics and disable an opponet through sounds. Can I do it, No. Have I seen it done, Yes. But thats a very long story in itself.

Kiai has many different uses, A low kiai sound helps to root the body and is used with different techniques or can be I should say, whereas a high pich kiai has other uses and to go into it futher there are transitional Kiai from Hi pitch to Low pitch and Low to High all of which had an intended purpose.

To me the term Kiai has lost its original meaning and intent. Kinda like someone saying go make me a xerox. Xerox is a brand. Ive seen ppl today whom I swear think a Xerox is the same thing as going to make 100 copies of an annual report.

Today Kiai and Xerox seem to be about the same

Thanks

San

 

[Doc]

Hi Folks
The term Kiai simply means to yell or shout. To this day I get a kick watching and listening to ppl Yell the word Yell/Shout in a different language. Kiai is not only an action but a command of ececution it is what you are supposed to do and an area where you place emphais. In modern martial arts, I see practitioners yell and shout all through thier repective forms. Now perhaps that is how they do it now but is not and was not the original intent.

Quite correct.

When I was coming up under the late Shizyura Tanaka Sensei and the late Soke Kuniba we had lengthly discussions about this very topic. Their belief was and is mine now that an easy way to remember how to Kiai (Yell / Shout) properly was to simply use your vowel sounds or any combination of. A. E. I. O. U and yes sometimes Y.

There is validity to that.

As I was taught and use to teach the vowels allow the throat to not costrict therby allowing air from the diaphram to escape. the use of H or K and a few other sounds constrict the throat and dont allow the air to be properly dispelled from the diaphram.

There are no vocal pronunciation of letters or words that 'constrict' the throat.

Now is this etched in stone. No, of course not but it is what I believe to be a good basic rule of thumb.

I agree with the exception noted above.

Kiai has many different uses, A low kiai sound helps to root the body and is used with different techniques or can be I should say, whereas a high pich kiai has other uses and to go into it futher there are transitional Kiai from Hi pitch to Low pitch and Low to High all of which had an intended purpose.

The vocal pitch of a 'kiai' do not affect structural integrity or "rooting" positively or negatively.

To me the term Kiai has lost its original meaning and intent. Kinda like someone saying go make me a xerox. Xerox is a brand. Ive seen ppl today whom I swear think a Xerox is the same thing as going to make 100 copies of an annual report.
Today Kiai and Xerox seem to be about the same

Unfortunately, too true. Your perpesctive is traditional Okinawa/Japanese where the shout or yell 'kiai' in martial arts has its roots in Japanese Culture. So much so it is assigned a separate term to reflect that position. In the older Chinese Philosophy however, there is no separate "shout" component. There is simply "breathing," and there is a right and wrong way for various circumstances.