Differences in Wing Chun & 7 Star Mantis

[dmax999]

Well, I overused the chain punch. It worked extremely well for me and was almost unblockable/unavoidable when done at full speed. I would do up to around 2000 punches at one time at the level I was at, but of course not full power, but it was at speed. It was a simple matter of making the most powerful/quickest single strike possible. Some boxers are the same way with jabs.

Another aspect, for our school at least, is you learn to use the blocks as strikes. If you pak sau someone a few times in a row, they will think twice about throwing another punch. All the blocks were like this. Your opponent would leave with very sore wrists. Of course conditioning made this unnoticable, but not many MA schools will condition against it.

BTW, good videos. The mantis video was similar to our sparring fights, just different techniques. We would spar like that constantly, you get to the point where no matter what attack comes in, the fight is over before you realize what is going on, pure reaction.

 

[bcbernam777]

" It not visual at all, its trained to the point of feeling tension or energy and yielding to it in order to take the opponent off balance, trap, or move into a different attack. The way we train our feel is much like tai chi feel, we train to not only feel the tension or momentum but use that against them either by unbalancing them or attacking. Most of our techniques come off of feel (i.e. you punch, I ride the punch in, then as it empties I pluck and attack myself)."

This is the exact purpose of Chi Sau, many people mistakingly utilise Chi Sau as a form of sparring, but if chis sau was simply a form of sparring then you may as well just spar. The purpose of Chis sau is exactly the same, how to feel your oponants pooint of of tension, the flow of his own energy, not just in the hands but also in the stance, so that we can utilise that to make the oponant loose his centre, at least with Sifu Fung this how we train, in training Chis sau this way both the initiator and the reciepient have a chance to grow and develop their centre to develop a more strong and stable centre of gravity


As for the chain punch, it is simply one of the many tools at the WC practioners disposal, I would suggest aginst an oponant who is obviously not a trained fighter then it could be quite useful, but like any technique, if you overuse it you are in danger of your oponant being able to read the ebb and flow of your way of fighting, I dont know why WC people dont mix it up more, but as for me, I rarly use the chain punch, except in a situation where I want to regain control of the situation, or as a pshychological edge over the oponant, agin it has its uses just as Dai Jeung has its uses, it is always a case of what is the right tool for the job.

 

[7starmantis]

It seems the consensus is that the chain punch isn't to be used alone, however all WC players I've spent time with have used it almost exclusively during the barage. I'm not saying outside this barage, but during it.

I would like to discuss a bit more the concept of unbalancing. We talked about this principles here:

...how to feel your oponants pooint of of tension, the flow of his own energy, not just in the hands but also in the stance, so that we can utilise that to make the oponant loose his centre...

What method is used here to make the opponent loose his balance? Is it done through a series of attacks? In mantis we use "plucks" which are meant to extend the opponent off balance, but we also focus on using stances (i.e. shin to shin), and then we also use uprooting the feet (i.e. sweeping the lead foot, throws, etc.) Is this the same in WC?

Also, I want to go back to this:

Also, the three seconds to win wasn't a cool "self-defense move" or joint lock or throw, it was ugly pound the hell out of the other guy.

Does this mean that during the barage we have been talking about that the goal is really not chin na or attacking the joints or even throws? Is the idea more straight full on attacks?

7sm

 

[dmax999]

Also, I want to go back to this:
Does this mean that during the barage we have been talking about that the goal is really not chin na or attacking the joints or even throws? Is the idea more straight full on attacks?

7sm

For me, yes. Don't control the opponent, don't slow down the opponent, strike until you break something so they can't fight. Many non-chain punch strikes I learned were intended to break bones(mostly low kicks), though I'm not entirely sure how successful they would be at that (Never used them "on the street"). Didn't learn a single joint lock or chin na my eitire time in WC.

Remember, I by far didn't learn all there was to WC, I just learned the bit I did know really really good. Quality over quantity.

 

[bcbernam777]

It seems the consensus is that the chain punch isn't to be used alone, however all WC players I've spent time with have used it almost exclusively during the barage. I'm not saying outside this barage, but during it.

it is probably because of their lack of training or false hope that the chain punch is their salvation, speed must be in all techniques not just in Sao Kuen, so that any technique can be utlised at any time in any combination to get the job done quickly and efficiently.

I would like to discuss a bit more the concept of unbalancing. We talked about this principles here:
What method is used here to make the opponent loose his balance? Is it done through a series of attacks? In mantis we use "plucks" which are meant to extend the opponent off balance, but we also focus on using stances (i.e. shin to shin), and then we also use uprooting the feet (i.e. sweeping the lead foot, throws, etc.) Is this the same in WC?
7sm

ATTACKS: using multiple attacks as a constant barage can disturb your oponants center of gravity, quite effectivly

USE OF THE FEET: Yes this is also a vital part of controling the oponants centre of balance, controling the oponants feet, i.e. without a mans legs he has no position, control the legs, control the man.

USE OF THE ENERGY: each form in Wing Chun develops its own level of energy, building one upon another, Sui Lum Tao develops the simplistic forward energy, chum Kiu develops what is known as two way energy, then Bui Jee develops a third level of energy, by utilising the two way energy you are abel to control very easily your oponants balance and centre of gravity, adding the Bui Jee energy is the icing on the cake.

IN CLOSING: When you combine all of the above together you are able to more than effectivly control your opnonant, if the above is combined with timing, proper fighting distance, aliveness, and the ability to respond to broken rythym.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes but how is the control used against the opponent? How do you actually control them? I understand what your saying, but I'm interested in actual situations with techniques that might be used. Grant it, no one technique is ever going to work 100% of the time, but just for the sake of this thread. Controling the opponents center of gravity how? By trapping and pulling their arms downward, by pushing on their knee with you knee, etc?

7sm

 

[bcbernam777]

Yes but how is the control used against the opponent? How do you actually control them? I understand what your saying, but I'm interested in actual situations with techniques that might be used. Grant it, no one technique is ever going to work 100% of the time, but just for the sake of this thread. Controling the opponents center of gravity how? By trapping and pulling their arms downward, by pushing on their knee with you knee, etc?

7sm

The majority of people utlise tense energy when employing their techniques, because of their tense energy they connect their arms with their centre of gravity, by controlling their arms you can control their centre of graivty by utlising the energy from your centre of gravity, because their shoulder is not loosened. Coyupled with the shoulder energy of Bui Jee you can direct their centre of gravity to control them. Does this make it clearer???

 

[arnisador]

Yes but how is the control used against the opponent? How do you actually control them?

One WC-based technique I see a lot in JKD is using your right arm to knock a right block out of the way, toward the outside of your opponent's body, in order to get in a left punch after your first attempt to do so has been stopped. With this action you shuffle in, possibly stepping on the opponent's foot but more to the point your right arm, parallel to the floor and to your chest, pushes right up against his chest. Your right hand is controlling his right hand, but your right forearm/elbow is controlling his left arm at about its elbow, and your forearm along his chest moves him just a little bit back and off-balance. That's a lot of control!

As usual, it's hard to describe this but easy to demonstrate it. I've done it and had it done on me. It doesn't work for long--just long enough for a punch to get in. But then you follow that with another...

 

[7starmantis]

The majority of people utlise tense energy when employing their techniques, because of their tense energy they connect their arms with their centre of gravity, by controlling their arms you can control their centre of graivty by utlising the energy from your centre of gravity, because their shoulder is not loosened. Coyupled with the shoulder energy of Bui Jee you can direct their centre of gravity to control them. Does this make it clearer???

I understand the concept of controlling, I'm more aksing about what technique you use to perform it. Taking from this I would assume its done mainly from the arms of the opponent then?

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Can't make two moves in same perimeter at same time (Punch high while blocking high) because the body can't balance out the energy required to do both right, it will allow you to be thrown off balance a lot easier.

I wouldn't mind discussing this idea a little more. Why would this allow the body to be more easily taken off balance? In order to be controled you must resist at some point, if no resistance is given, then taking your body off balance will be much harder, no?

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

Control either by striking which in addition to injury will off balance them, also getting thier access to rotate to the outside ( away from you), by pinning one or both arms while attacking( the pin may be temporary only for one or 2 of the strikes.
Leg attacks that will disrupt their balance and temporarily halt thier own attack
Control can be just making them move in a way that is benefecialto you either caused by chin na or strikes.
I have noticed alot of good jujitsu people also stick while doing thier joint lock techniques but not their striking

 

[bcbernam777]

I understand the concept of controlling, I'm more aksing about what technique you use to perform it.

Because of the energy development that should be in Wing Chun, you can utilise any technique, so then the focus is not technique but on actual energy (or force). However in Chum Kiu one of the most utilsed techniques is the Bong Sau, so many people will utilise the bong sau to tray and distrupt an opponaonts balance

Taking from this I would assume its done mainly from the arms of the opponent then?

7sm

Not all the time, it can happen wherever there is contact, be it arms, legs or body.

 

[7starmantis]

Because of the energy development that should be in Wing Chun, you can utilise any technique, so then the focus is not technique but on actual energy (or force). However in Chum Kiu one of the most utilsed techniques is the Bong Sau, so many people will utilise the bong sau to tray and distrupt an opponaonts balance

Excuse my ignorance, what are you refering to as Bong Sau?

Also, would it be accurate to say in WC you wouldn't normally step around to the side of your opponent or even behind your opponent?

7sm

 

[bcbernam777]

Excuse my ignorance, what are you refering to as Bong Sau?

It is what Yip Man is doing in my avatar, it is cantonese for Wing Arm.

Also, would it be accurate to say in WC you wouldn't normally step around to the side of your opponent or even behind your opponent?

7sm

There is a misunderstanding, even amongst Wing Chun students that the goal is to hit your oponants centreline, and because of this 90% of attacks have to happen front on, also when people talk about chil yeung, they think is stands for facing the oponant front on, both the centreline and chil yeung (facing the sun) are in relation to the attackers line, not the oponants. To clarify, there is a concept called centreline advantage, I will give 3 examples:

1) A and B stand square on to each other, both have the same centreline placement so neither has the advantage, because they have the same centreline advantage both A and B can equally utilise their tools.

2) A stays where he is B rotates left 45 degrees, A now has the centreline advantage because his centreline is still facing his opponant, whilst B's centreline is not facing his oponate, therefore he cannot equally utilise his tools effectivly.

3) Again both A and B are squared of, A circles his opponant until he is Facing B from the rear, agin A has the centreline advantage because HIS centreline is facing the oponant, where as B's centreline is no where near the oponant.

to boil it down the further away your centreline is from the oponants the lower your centreline poisition and the greater his centreline advantage is.

So in Wing Chun you can step wherever you need to, remembering that both the side and the back contain vital points as well i.e. Temples, kidneys, the only guiding point is in stepping do I retain the centreline advantage. Now in saying all of that you can take take that same principle and apply it more subtly, by moving even a few centermentres one way or the other whilst yuo are facing the front, you still have centreline advantage, because now your centreline is facing him whilst his is slightly pointed away from your centreline.

 

[brothershaw]

Another good post bcbernam, you have no idea how it makes me go nuts when people think the centerline means just up the center, not attacking the center from any angle on the circumference of the circle.

7star regarding wing chun attacking from the side or behind-
look at the wooden man with the arms in front and the leg especially there are some moves where you have to work around it to the side while some moves are straight on.

 

[7starmantis]

So then we could agree that the major difference between Wing Chun and 7 Star Mantis would be the use and focus of the centerline? Keeping your centerline and attacking theirs.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

7star- does 7star mantis have any exlpicit opinions on the centerline? I know some of the wing chun center line stuff has to be implied in other systems mainly becuase some of it is just common sense stuff you might not think about.

I have a friend who did 7 star and wing chun I will ask him about his opinions on the differences. To my knowledge 7 star is a large,medium and short range system where as wing chun is primarily concerned with being in close. ALso from the very little 7star I saw the moves appear to be bigger without the elbow in, everything comeing from the center type of emphasis. Feel fre to comment or correct.

 

[ed-swckf]

Excuse my ignorance, what are you refering to as Bong Sau?

Also, would it be accurate to say in WC you wouldn't normally step around to the side of your opponent or even behind your opponent?

7sm

Being to the side or behind my opponent is definitely where i'd prefer to be, i don't want to opperate in the line of his main weapons.

 

[ed-swckf]

So then we could agree that the major difference between Wing Chun and 7 Star Mantis would be the use and focus of the centerline? Keeping your centerline and attacking theirs.

7sm

could you post some good 7star mantis sites that i could use for reference? to get a better idea of the art and to see what differences strike me when i compare the two.

 

[dmax999]

WC seemed very odd to me when I first took it. After you get good enough at it, eveything else seems odd. Yea, you can step around an opponent, but why bother when you can have him at total disadvantage in the time to take a step? Also, you may not be able to move around an opponent without giving up centerline advantage or correct defenses. The WC I leaned I couldn't "take a step to the side" following the "rules", but I could follow an opponent doing the same. Of course the "rules" are meant to be followed for training, not for real fights.

I think WC was also designed for fighting in extremely small areas. You could use WC in a closet to its full effect without hinderance, while Mizhong-Lohan would be useless in such confined areas. The little bit of WC staff that I've seen is also useful in a tight hallway, while any other Kung-Fu staff form needs an open plain area almost.