Differences in Wing Chun & 7 Star Mantis

[dmax999]

Yes, I think when it comes down to a real encounter, this is what actually gets results. Many arts teach a lot of stuff that has good theory behind it, but I wonder how much of it really works when push comes to shove. My White Crane sifu has taught me some amazing, beautiful, lengthy, and powerful forms, but he says when it comes to fighting, all you need is Chien Choi, Pau Choi, and Kup Choi (charging punch, cannon fist punch, and down raking punch), and the ability to throw them like lightning.

This is the #1 reason I like WC so much. You would only work those couple moves that you would actually use in a fight. No time wasted working on scissor stance or elbow locks that can be easily escaped, or tons of crazy forms.

My WC class worked more like a boxing gym then MA class. Still had class, but most of it was physical training or sparring training, very little else once you learned the material.

 

[7starmantis]

This is the #1 reason I like WC so much. You would only work those couple moves that you would actually use in a fight. No time wasted working on scissor stance or elbow locks that can be easily escaped, or tons of crazy forms.

My WC class worked more like a boxing gym then MA class. Still had class, but most of it was physical training or sparring training, very little else once you learned the material.

Thats what makes a good fighter, but its not exclusive to WC only.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

Can't make two moves in same perimeter at same time (Punch high while blocking high) because the body can't balance out the energy required to do both right, it will allow you to be thrown off balance a lot easier.

I would be interested in hearing more about this concept. Being thrown off balance is a process that includes many different operations. To throw someone off balance by using an apendage (say their arms from a punch) they must tighten and give you that control. We focus on relaxing and yielding. To move someone with their elbow requires that at some point (either at their elbow, shoulder, chest, waist, etc) they resist to a degree. If they completely yield with no tightening or resisting, you have no throw and cannot take their balance. I think to say its easier to get thrown off balance by making two moves in the same perimiter is relying on resistance. If you know how to "root" and drop your center, what your arms do shouldn't affect your balance at all.

I would love to hear more on this concept if anyone wants to eleborate for me

As for maintaining contact, we had a distance we wanted to fight at. Once you attacked, we maintained that distance right through the other guy trying to retreat. It wasn't feasable for someone to back up faster then I could keep on them punching. Also practice punching full power on moving targets, I could continue punching as they fell to the ground if needs be or no matter how they ducked and weaved. At full speed I was putting out 10 punches a second and wouldn't miss, even if I did miss one the other 9 would put someone out.

This is something I've heard alot from WC guys. Its very true, its deffinitely not feasable to retreat faster than someone coming in. However, retreating to the side or around in a circular motion is very feasable. Thats a main differance I see between the two, we use very circular and angular movements instead of retreating backwards. Also, moving in even closer can many times shut down a barrage of punches. What would be the proper thing according to WC in that type of situation? If you moving forward and the opponent also moves forward? Also, the rapid punching is great and your right about making contact, but what about having those punches shut down by being trapped or something? Is that feasable? Also, what about endurance, is that something thats focused on in WC? I mean throwing 10 punches a second is taxing, how long would you train to keep that up?

Also, the three seconds to win wasn't a cool "self-defense move" or joint lock or throw, it was ugly pound the hell out of the other guy.

So then WC would generally not place much stock in chin na or throws and such? Would you guys use elbows and knees much, or mainly punches?


7sm

 

[dmax999]

I never worried about someone moving closer, not many would with my kind of punches coming at them. If they were good enough to move in closer with confidence I am so outclassed it really doesn't matter what I do. As for moving around us, maybe, but we trained on that too. Many hours of following people around as they tried everything they could to lose the distance and angles from us.

I visited an MA school with a "fifth degree" MA black belt that told me how worthless WC was and showed me how he could stop me in an instant, I trapped him up completely and had a backfist on his nose within the first half second. Had it been a real fight, it was over before the first second, I was a WC yellow belt at the time. He was one of those move to the sides and up and down to not let you opponent know where you are coming from. I had no problem following his movements, funny thing is he did some of the crazy stuff we would train against that I had thought I would never see done in a fight.

As for how long could I punch full power at 10 a sec? Probably 15 to 20 seconds, maybe longer. Did tons of pushups, bag work, and threw a couple thousand practice punches every day. Its my main offense, and I made sure it was as strong as possible.

Trapping chain punches is a good question. Our "non traditional" chain punch only moved one hand at a time, wait until the first retreated completely before throwing the next one. This prevented both hands from being trapped at once, but lowered the number of punches a second we could do.

 

[7starmantis]

I never worried about someone moving closer, not many would with my kind of punches coming at them. If they were good enough to move in closer with confidence I am so outclassed it really doesn't matter what I do. As for moving around us, maybe, but we trained on that too. Many hours of following people around as they tried everything they could to lose the distance and angles from us.

Yes, we do alot of those same types of drills. So, if you were moved in on during the barrage, what exactly would you do? I mean, what type of techniques would be used in that situation at that close of a range?

As for how long could I punch full power at 10 a sec? Probably 15 to 20 seconds, maybe longer. Did tons of pushups, bag work, and threw a couple thousand practice punches every day. Its my main offense, and I made sure it was as strong as possible.

My point wasn't strength or power of these punches, but endurance. If someone was to avoid getting hit or "taken down" by this barrage, what would be the next move or idea? You would get pretty tired and consequently slow having to throw several different sets of those punches, no? I'm just curious as to what would be the next logical technique or idea in a situation where the barrage failed?

Trapping chain punches is a good question. Our "non traditional" chain punch only moved one hand at a time, wait until the first retreated completely before throwing the next one. This prevented both hands from being trapped at once, but lowered the number of punches a second we could do.

So basically, trapping would effectively shut this down? What about being pulled off balance by one of the punches? If the punch missed and the attacker pulled on the punching arm, pulling you off balance? What would be the idea, set up again for the barrage?

7sm

 

[arnisador]

I have surprised people in JKD who thought that the chain punch was unstoppable by using the basic FMA idea of stepping out to a 45 degree, parrying, and then wrapping the arms. (I know this idea is in many other arts too!) As with the stick, sometimes you can tie up both arms with just one.

 

[mantis]

to me WC practitioners seem to extend their arms while they are pretty stiff. doesnt than give a handle to your opponent to manipulate your center of gravity and balance?

 

[ed-swckf]

to me WC practitioners seem to extend their arms while they are pretty stiff. doesnt than give a handle to your opponent to manipulate your center of gravity and balance?

They really shouldn't have stiff arms the premise of the training should negate this. And you are right, if they do have stiff arms then they will be open to manipulation.

 

[dmax999]

Anytime a limb was pulled in our WC class, we felt it, let it happen, and stepped forward with the same amount of pull while throwing a punch. Its a bad idea to "fight" a grab and pull, just go with it and turn it to an advantage. Conversly we never did any "grabs" because if the other guy was stronger he had a possibility to pull back harder. Lop sau and fook sau (sp?) are not true grabs and an opponent actually pulling back will easily break free of them.

Yea, supposedly the standard chain punched can be trapped easily, but I never sparred a traditional WC guy to see for myself. Lke I said we did it a little different to prevent that, not that it would be impossible.

All these ideas against a chain punch are fine, but the simple fact is they are as quick as jabs and about the power of a good cross.

 

[7starmantis]

Also, the three seconds to win wasn't a cool "self-defense move" or joint lock or throw, it was ugly pound the hell out of the other guy.

I thought this might be relevent. This is a clip I posted way back when, but its some mantis applications at high speed. Its drills and such, so keep that in mind, but the speed and agressiveness of the attack is what I'm wanting to point out. This is the type of "three second fight" I'm refering to as well. Is this what your refering to?

http://www.mantismartialart.com/demofight-2.WMV

PS: Turn your sound down.

 

[arnisador]

Meanwhile, just posted to Eskrima Digest (I don't know why):
http://www.garylamwingchun.com/movies/SifuLamDemonew_medium.mov

It definitely has some rapid exchanges!

 

[bcbernam777]

I would be interested in hearing more about this concept. Being thrown off balance is a process that includes many different operations. To throw someone off balance by using an apendage (say their arms from a punch) they must tighten and give you that control. We focus on relaxing and yielding. To move someone with their elbow requires that at some point (either at their elbow, shoulder, chest, waist, etc) they resist to a degree. If they completely yield with no tightening or resisting, you have no throw and cannot take their balance. I think to say its easier to get thrown off balance by making two moves in the same perimiter is relying on resistance. If you know how to "root" and drop your center, what your arms do shouldn't affect your balance at all.

I would love to hear more on this concept if anyone wants to eleborate for me

One of the foundational things that the Sui Lum Tao should teach Wing Chun practicioners is how to disconnect the arms from the stance, by the use of "rooting" through the Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (the stance) and by using the shoulder as a hinge. The power for the offensive/defensive moves arise from this rooting i.e. ground power, meaning that your arms are not utilising the muscular, therefore are relaxed and fluid, hence from where the Wing Chun hands gain their lightning speed, relaxation is essential in Wing Chun, for fast response and quick attack, and the more "rooting" you have the better. If the arms are tense then the opractioner is utilising the incorrect energy, meaning their ability to move with the ebb and floww of their oponant is greatly reduced, leaving them vulnerable. Also by utilising this tense energy they connect their arms with their stance and are able to have the oponant seek to control their centre of balance.

This is something I've heard alot from WC guys. Its very true, its deffinitely not feasable to retreat faster than someone coming in. However, retreating to the side or around in a circular motion is very feasable. Thats a main differance I see between the two, we use very circular and angular movements instead of retreating backwards. Also, moving in even closer can many times shut down a barrage of punches. What would be the proper thing according to WC in that type of situation? If you moving forward and the opponent also moves forward?

As with any other way of fighting proper timing must be observed, as well as a solid foundation in fighting distance. Wing Chun doesnt work in centimetres, but millimeters, meaning you learn how to judge your oponants distance including his tools, hard to do at first but not impossible. The foot work at the basic level from Sifu Fung is very small, but eventually when you have trained in this foot work long enough you will find that you are quite speedy and able to evade your oponant quite proiciently. This type of foot work does 3 things, 1) it helps you to maintain the rooting of the stance even in motion 2) it creates a deception for the oponant, where you seem to be moving without moving 3) It helps to maintain energy, without waste.

There will be times when you need to rotateor sidestep this is reasonable, but it is always important to maintain the proper fighting distance from your oponant

Also, the rapid punching is great and your right about making contact, but what about having those punches shut down by being trapped or something? Is that feasable? Also, what about endurance, is that something thats focused on in WC? I mean throwing 10 punches a second is taxing, how long would you train to keep that up?

Part of the Lesson of Chum Kiu is how to utilse leverage via the movement of the centre of gravity, this is usefull in times when your hands are trapped, hoever there is always the concepts of Bui Jee, whirpool energy etc. to utlise in such a situation, bui jee is useful if you have lost the centre and you need to regain it. As for the punching, it would only be taxing if the practioner has not yet learnt how to seperate the arms from the stance, once they can utilise a relaxed soft energy they can then punch as often as they want without the utlisation of excess energy.

So then WC would generally not place much stock in chin na or throws and such? Would you guys use elbows and knees much, or mainly punches?
7sm

We pretty much would use whatever weapon was at our disposal, for example if I have been tied up by a BJJ guy and the only way out of the situation is a headbut across the bridge of the nose then I would do that, because such a move would be in harmony with the principals of efficiency, directness, and simplicity, which are the governing rules, there are also elbows contained in the Bui Jee form, in Wing chun 80% of the fighting is the hands 20% feet.

 

[7starmantis]

As for the punching, it would only be taxing if the practioner has not yet learnt how to seperate the arms from the stance, once they can utilise a relaxed soft energy they can then punch as often as they want without the utlisation of excess energy.

I think I understand this practice, probably better than alot, but "excess energy" not being expended still doesn't mean energy is not expended at all. Punching that fast for any amount of time is going to be taxing. We practice very soft relaxed energy, but that amount of speed and power is going to be taxing. I'm not saying you can't train to increase your stamina, but its going to be taxing to some degee. In fact, that is one of the things we say about developing feel. If you fight someone much quicker and more powerful than yourself, you need your feel to at least be able to avoid getting hurt. If you can just yield and not get hurt, they will have to regroup eventually, thats when you can turn it on them. This isn't our strategy per se, but it sure works agasint someone much faster than yourself.

7sm

 

[bcbernam777]

I think I understand this practice, probably better than alot, but "excess energy" not being expended still doesn't mean energy is not expended at all. Punching that fast for any amount of time is going to be taxing. We practice very soft relaxed energy, but that amount of speed and power is going to be taxing. I'm not saying you can't train to increase your stamina, but its going to be taxing to some degee. In fact, that is one of the things we say about developing feel. If you fight someone much quicker and more powerful than yourself, you need your feel to at least be able to avoid getting hurt. If you can just yield and not get hurt, they will have to regroup eventually, thats when you can turn it on them. This isn't our strategy per se, but it sure works agasint someone much faster than yourself.

7sm

To give you an idea, at one sitting I can perform 1000 punches, now it starts to drag out at about 800, and this is because I still have some steps to go before I have fully realeased my shoulder, after some time in training you start to feel the resistance of each muscle, Yip Man didnt have an ounce of muscle on him, yet he could still deliver multiple, effective punches over continuous periods, now of course there is energy expended, but it shoud be, at least the aim, is to fully utilise the soft, pliable whipping energy, and loosing the tense, restrictive Iron Bar energy. This can only be done with proper utilsation of ground power, as your source of energy. More stance training = more power.

 

[brothershaw]

good posts bcbernam

 

[7starmantis]

I understand about the punches, I to spend time everyday in the bag room doing over 1000 punches and 1000 kicks in as fast a time as I can of course including jump rope and such. I think the main difference between the styles in this istance is "feel". I'm not saying WC doesn't utilize or train feel, but I think mantis relys more on it for the defense and setup of attacks, especially these types of "rush attacks". If you watch the video I posted you can see some speed drills we practice, these can and do go on much much longer than in the video. I think the difference in "blitz" attacks here is WC is using mainly punches and mostly the one main punch, while mantis tries to utilize many different types of punches as well as feet in the same blitz.

One isn't necessarily better than the other, just different. This has become a very interesting thread.

7sm

 

[bcbernam777]

I understand about the punches, I to spend time everyday in the bag room doing over 1000 punches and 1000 kicks in as fast a time as I can of course including jump rope and such. I think the main difference between the styles in this istance is "feel". I'm not saying WC doesn't utilize or train feel, but I think mantis relys more on it for the defense and setup of attacks, especially these types of "rush attacks". If you watch the video I posted you can see some speed drills we practice, these can and do go on much much longer than in the video. I think the difference in "blitz" attacks here is WC is using mainly punches and mostly the one main punch, while mantis tries to utilize many different types of punches as well as feet in the same blitz.

One isn't necessarily better than the other, just different. This has become a very interesting thread.

7sm

I dont quite understand what you mean by "feel", do you mean touch sensitivity, do you mean body feel, do you visual feel, can you clairfy?

As for Wing chun using one main punch, I can understand how an outsider would think this, however, every technique in Wing Chun share a simultaneous offensive/defensive capability, for example Tan Sau is more than just a block, it can be used as a knife edge to the throat, the Whu Sau, widely regarded as soley being defensive in purpose, can also be used as a piercing attack to the solar plexus, or attack to the underbridge of the nose, in fact the straight vertical fist can also be used for simultaneous offence/defense, by either including an attac or excluding attack, which is achieved through the correct structure, and positioning etc. Also Wing chun also utilises multiple strikes with kicks simultaneously, part of the purpose of Chum Kiu is to teach this principle, where all three limbs can be used in harmony and coordination to create an effective ans very hard to deal with offencive strategy.

 

[7starmantis]

I dont quite understand what you mean by "feel", do you mean touch sensitivity, do you mean body feel, do you visual feel, can you clairfy?

Well, its one of our fighting principles thats probably the hardest to explain. A WC person will understand it much better though. Basically its touch feel with all parts of the body, like body feel but taken past where most train it. It not visual at all, its trained to the point of feeling tension or energy and yielding to it in order to take the opponent off balance, trap, or move into a different attack. The way we train our feel is much like tai chi feel, we train to not only feel the tension or momentum but use that against them either by unbalancing them or attacking. Most of our techniques come off of feel (i.e. you punch, I ride the punch in, then as it empties I pluck and attack myself). Mantis uses alot of "plucking" where we allow your attack to fully extend and then continue its movement to take you off balance and bring you into an attack.
Does that help expplain it a bit?

As for Wing chun using one main punch, I can understand how an outsider would think this, however, every technique in Wing Chun share a simultaneous offensive/defensive capability, for example Tan Sau is more than just a block, it can be used as a knife edge to the throat, the Whu Sau, widely regarded as soley being defensive in purpose, can also be used as a piercing attack to the solar plexus, or attack to the underbridge of the nose, in fact the straight vertical fist can also be used for simultaneous offence/defense, by either including an attac or excluding attack, which is achieved through the correct structure, and positioning etc. Also Wing chun also utilises multiple strikes with kicks simultaneously, part of the purpose of Chum Kiu is to teach this principle, where all three limbs can be used in harmony and coordination to create an effective ans very hard to deal with offencive strategy.

No, I didn't mean that WC only uses one main punch, I meant that in the barage we were discussing, its usually the one main punch during that barage. While mantis attempts to barage with as many different techniques as possible, assuming the opponent sets them up.

7sm

 

[brothershaw]

Wing chun relies heavily on feel, sticking and bridging. I wont elaborate because you should know what I mean from your own descriptions of mantis.
People often see and talk about only the chain punch which is overhyped and overemphasized. A moderately skilled person would stick , follow the bridge and attack rapidly with a variety of strikes and low kicks as fast as chain punching or faster.
In my opinion chain punching is just a training tool not the end product. But those damn magazine articles.......

 

[Flying Crane]

A moderately skilled person would stick , follow the bridge and attack rapidly with a variety of strikes and low kicks as fast as chain punching or faster.
In my opinion chain punching is just a training tool not the end product. But those damn magazine articles.......

yeah, i'd agree with this one too.