Difference in Poomsae

[terryl965]

What do you believe to be the more common differences in the ITF and WTF style of Poomsae's?

What advantages do they have and how much common ground do they have?

Would it be beneficial to teach both sets at a school, why or why not?

 

[WMKS Shogun]

The Chang Hon forms bear strong resemblance to the old Tang Soo Do (Shotokan) forms taught to Koreans during the Japanese occupation. (If you do not believe me, compare Won-Hyo and Pyung Ahn Ee-Dan/Pinan nidan). The stances tend to be lower to the ground and more karate like in nature. There is also a strong influence of the karate bunkai (hidden applications) in the Chang Hon forms.
Taeguk and Palgae forms seem to have higher stances, more kicks, and I personally (keep in mind, this is a personal observation) see less 'hidden application' in the Taeguk/Palgae forms. The meanings seem more obvious, (block, kick, strike).
I could go on a little bit more, but it is late and I personally want to hear what other people say too.

 

[exile]

The Chang Hon forms bear strong resemblance to the old Tang Soo Do (Shotokan) forms taught to Koreans during the Japanese occupation. (If you do not believe me, compare Won-Hyo and Pyung Ahn Ee-Dan/Pinan nidan). The stances tend to be lower to the ground and more karate like in nature. There is also a strong influence of the karate bunkai (hidden applications) in the Chang Hon forms.
Taeguk and Palgae forms seem to have higher stances, more kicks, and I personally (keep in mind, this is a personal observation) see less 'hidden application' in the Taeguk/Palgae forms. The meanings seem more obvious, (block, kick, strike).
I could go on a little bit more, but it is late and I personally want to hear what other people say too.

WMKS---I think the same concealed applications are there in the Taegeuks and the Palgwes. Simon J. O'Neil has a book coming out next year with a lot of material on the Taegeuks that mirrors Iain Abernethy's approach to bunkai analysis for Japanese Karate. And I see a lot of material in the Palgwes which has the same interesting decoding (`blocks' are strikes or throws, `strikes' might actually be components of forcing moves or neck twists, `kicks' might be sweeps, `stance' transitions might be weight transfers as part of strike setups or finishes, etc.)

O'Neil has some analyses of the ITF forms also, in his Combat-TKD newsletters (check out http://www.combat-tkd.com/Ctkd1/home.php). And the overall approach to them (a block is probably a strike, the striking arm converts by muchimi to a gripping arm as part of the next strike/throw/lock, etc) is no different in kind from his bunkai (boon hae) for the Taegeuks. Given the fact that they originate as recombinations of bits of Okinawan or Okinawan-based katas, it would be strange if they didn't support applications parallel to karate bunkai for kata in those systems. I've been looking through Stuart Anslow's bunkai for the ITFs, and a lot of the subparts of the ITF tuls--- the `atomic fighting sequences', the two-to-four move fighting scenarios he uncovers taking you from the assailants first attaching move to the defender's finishing move, usually a strike---are not at all different from what you find in the Palgwes.

I will say this, I've done a couple of the Palgwes for Shotokan practitioners and gotten the response that they are very reminiscent of various Shotokan katas....

 

[WMKS Shogun]

I only have marginal experience with the Taeguk's and almost none with the Palgae's so I realize that I did (and still do not) have much room to talk about those two forms sets. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss it on here. Allow me to clarify my earlier statement. I did not see as much of the hidden application in the WTF forms, that most of it seems more overt, however, that obviously does nto mean that it is not in there. I also have not picked them apart move by move. But I look forward to continuing in this thread.

 

[exile]

I only have marginal experience with the Taeguk's and almost none with the Palgae's so I realize that I did (and still do not) have much room to talk about those two forms sets. I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss it on here. Allow me to clarify my earlier statement. I did not see as much of the hidden application in the WTF forms, that most of it seems more overt, however, that obviously does nto mean that it is not in there. I also have not picked them apart move by move.

It's actually only been very recently that anyone has been doing that, WMKS-Sh---the stuff by Simon O'Neil is only a couple of years old. I figure, given the historical rootedness of the WTF forms in the Okinawan/Japanese kata, and the tremendous attention to combat-effective kata bunkai from people like Abernethy, Kan & Wilder, McCarthy, Clark, Martinez, and Craige & Anderson (whose book on `hidden' bunkai, Shihan Te: the Bunkai of Karate Kata, I found almost totally opaque---anyone else have this experience with them?), it was only a matter of time before someone turned to the WTF forms and did the same thing.

There was a thread a few weeks back in which Upnorthkyosa noted that a lot of the old Kwan masters themselves almost certainly did not know the most advanced combat bunkai for the kata sets they learned as students in Japan---and interestingly, Stuart Anslow, in his new book on interpreting the ITF tuls, expresses just this view very emphatically, with good arguments in support. But one of Anslow's points is, the fact that Gen. Choi didn't necessarily know the really rough stuff that is latent in tul sequences which go back, ultimately, to Itosu and Matusumura (who knew the rough stuff inside out) doesn't matter---because those applications are implicit in the moves, in the sense that the moves only make sense as fighting techniques on these `harsh' interpretations.

The way I have been thinking of it, let's assume that UpNKy and Anslow are right. Then what the guys who founded the kwans did, in adopting kata they learned as students of Shotokan or Shudokan into TKD as hyungs/tuls/poomsae, etc, was not in principle different from someone who copies a written message in a language which they don't understand. The information is still present in the note even though the copyist doesn't know the language, and is available to you---as long as you yourself have a reading knowledge of the language. Now if, in the course of copying, the scribe garbles the note somewhat, gets a couple of paragraphs switched around, or even a few sentences, it's still possible to analyze the text in a way which allows you to extract the intended meaning, as long as it's not garbled too badly. So whether or not Gen. Choi or GM Rik knew what the full range of fighting applications might be in the patterns they adapted as TKD forms, those applications are still there, waiting to be decoded, and that's what O'Neil and Anslow and probably various other people have been doing lately.

But I look forward to continuing in this thread.

Me too, WMSK-Sh...

 

[Kacey]

I only know the tuls (ITF / Ch'ang H'on), so I can't really compare or contrast them. I do recall my instructor learning the first Shotokan form for part of his 6th Dan testing (he had to do a demonstration as part of his testing; he chose to research the history of tuls), and I recall that the first Shotokan form is amazingly similar to the second tul, but I don't know much else about them. I also know that the original Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do published in the early 60's contained Shotokan forms in the back of the volume; Gen. Choi initially started MA training when he was sent to Japan for his education, where he earned a first degree black belt in Shotokan Karate. Later in his life, he was imprisoned for his role in the Korean Independence movement, and it was during his time in prison that he began to develop the tuls - which is why so many of the early ones are contained in a specific area; they all fit within the 8' x 12' prison cell in which he lived.

 

[exile]

Later in his life, he was imprisoned for his role in the Korean Independence movement, and it was during his time in prison that he began to develop the tuls - which is why so many of the early ones are contained in a specific area; they all fit within the 8' x 12' prison cell in which he lived.

Wow, that is so interesting... a nonobvious but totally satisfying explanation for something that one might otherwise have assumed to be `just one of those things, I guess...'.

 

[IcemanSK]

Wow, that is so interesting... a nonobvious but totally satisfying explanation for something that one might otherwise have assumed to be `just one of those things, I guess...'.

I've said it before, those ITF folks know stuff:ultracool

 

[terryl965]

I really believe one can focus on the two different types of poomsae, I enjoy the wider stances in the ITF and I also enjoy the walking stances in WTF.

Since alot of us practice both what benefits do you see by combining the two.