Difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate

[K-man]

I don't think that's time well spent, out of all the techniques in Karate.. One guy wanted to talk to me when I got out my TKD school and he commented on this very exact thing, saying they just had him (in Karate) throw never ending straight punches, which, in his own words, was something he could do from his mothers stomach (before being born that is) and not exactly what he looked for in Karate.

I don't think you understand kihon and I'm sure you didn't read the article I referenced in the OP.

In case you missed it, here is point number 2 ...

Why” Over “How”

Seisan bunkai by Miyagi Chojun

If you practice Karate in Okinawa, you will often hear the word “imi”.

“Imi” translates to “meaning” in English.

Hence, in Okinawan Karate, the meaning of a technique is often more stressed than how the technique is actually executed.

The Why is more important than the How.

Japanese Karate, on the other hand, is often more focused on the How rather than the Why.

How come?

There are three main reasons for this:

1. The meaning of many techniques was lost during the historical transmission of Karate from Okinawa to Japan. If you don’t know the Why, it’s more sensible to teach the How.
2. The purpose of Japanese Karate is not aligned with the purpose of Okinawan Karate anymore. Historically speaking, Japanese Karate was molded to suit the spiritual Way (“Karate-Do”) of contemporary martial arts like Judo, Kendo, Aikido etc., with the main purpose of developing the character of its participants (through the How). The purpose of Okinawan Karate has always been mainly self-defense oriented (the Why).
3. The level of martial knowledge , i.e. biomechanics of Budo, is much deeper in Japan. Many techniques of Japanese Karate are influenced by other, more established, Japanese martial arts where the optimal movement patterns are well-researched.

For example, a Japanese sensei will go very deep in details of a kata.

(How to twist your hips, how to adjust your feet, how to shift your weight etc.)

But an Okinawan sensei will often remind you of the purpose of a kata instead.

The “bunkai”.

 

[K-man]

In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.

Just sayin

Funny that. A short clip of guys training kihon that only contains kihon. What did you expect to see in it? But then again, your post reinforces my point that many Western schools never progress beyond kihon.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't think you understand kihon and I'm sure you didn't read the article I referenced in the OP.

In case you missed it, here is point number 2 ...

I don't think your reply was well thought out, but leaving that aside for just a minute. It does verify the mass training in the Top 10 list of the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate. I would be very interested in how a proponent of this Japanese way of doing it can, in anyway, rationalise how this is nurturing individual growth as a martial artist in Karate. It's robotic mass training.

 

[Tez3]

In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.

Just sayin

Good heavens above!!!!! How dare they!!!! What is the world coming to!!!! Upon my word, there'll be letters to the Times about this!!!!

 

[K-man]

I don't think your reply was well thought out, but leaving that aside for just a minute. It does verify the mass training in the Top 10 list of the difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate. I would be very interested in how a proponent of this Japanese way of doing it can, in anyway, rationalise how this is nurturing individual growth as a martial artist in Karate. It's robotic mass training.

Exactly. You haven't been around MT for very long. If you had, or if you had taken time to read some of the other threads on this topic you may have learned that after many years of training Japanese Goju I changed to Okinawan Goju. I am not a proponent of the Japanese way of training at all, but for those who choose that style I am happy for them to do what they obviously enjoy doing and in many cases do extremely well.

I started this thread to point out the differences for those, like yourself, who are unaware that there is an entire different world outside of the type of Karate training promoted in Japan.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I started this thread to point out the differences for those, like yourself, who are unaware that there is an entire different world outside of the type of Karate training promoted in Japan.

Perhaps we can reach full circle here. You asserted it was Westernised ideals that have done damage to the perception of Karate in manys eyes. It's clearly Japanese, brought over to the West.

 

[K-man]

Perhaps we can reach full circle here. You asserted it was Westernised ideals that have done damage to the perception of Karate in manys eyes. It's clearly Japanese, brought over to the West.

Perhaps you could point me to where I said that? I have never said that and to me what you have written is just plain wrong. I don't believe that at all.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Perhaps you could point me to where I said that? I have never said that and to me what you have written is just plain wrong. I don't believe that at all.

Well, this is awkward. It appears that you did indeed group Japanese and Westernised training. My misstake. I am so used to certain Karatekas blaming the West for everything.

 

[K-man]

Well, this is awkward. It appears that you did indeed group Japanese and Westernised training. My misstake. I am so used to certain Karatekas blaming the West for everything.

In the West there are probably representations of every form of Eastern martial art. Some are true to the original teaching, some aren't. I don't have an issue with that and if the training is different, I don't have a problem with that either, unless someone misrepresents what they are teaching.

What this thread was pointing out is that there are significant differences between the karate that was developed in Okinawa in the early 1900s and the karate introduced to Japan some 20 years later. There are several reasons for these differences and they are discussed in the referenced article.

So why is Western training different? Karate was banned along with all other militaristic training post WWII.

Then, on October 22, 1945, the Supreme Commander Allied Powers (SCAP) notified the Ministry of Education that "dissemination of militaristic and ultranationalistic ideology will be prohibited and all military education and drill will be discontinued." Two months later, on January 4, 1946, SCAP issued Directive 550, which, with its companion Directive 548, required "the removal and exclusion from public life of militaristic and ultra nationalistic persons." One result of these orders was that the Ministry of Education eliminated martial arts from school curricula and another was that the Dai Nippon Butokukai was closed.

Although new federations quickly arose to take the place of the Butokukai, its closure still left Japan without a central regulatory authority for martial arts for the first time in decades. Meanwhile, from 1946 until 1948, SCAP actively persecuted ("purged") former fascists. Some of the latter were martial art enthusiasts. This added to the confusion about what was legal and what was not, and the result was confusion in Japanese martial art circles that did not begin working itself out until the late 1940s.

Because of this postwar confusion, there has since arisen the perception that SCAP imposed a Budo Ban on Japan. In reality, however, the "budo" banned was not traditional martial arts such as kendo and judo, but instead the products of state fascism that operated under the same name during the 1930s and 1940s.
JCS Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban

What was reintroduced after the war were the martial arts that were being trained more for health and fitness than for militaristic reasons. There is no way the Japanese would be showing Westerners the applications of the kihon being taught. Hence the first guys to come from Japan post war taught the same karate they had learned in Japan or Okinawa, the same karate that was taught in the schools and universities. That is pretty much the same as the Japanese karate we see today. It took many years for Westerners to understand that there was far more to karate than was being taught in most schools.

That is not the fault of the West or the Japanese. Those first guys went away and taught what they had been taught. They hadn't been training for long so weren't even advanced students. It it remarkable that karate became as popular as it did. Even so, it was the Japanese styles of Shotokan, Goju Kai and Kyokushin that drove that development and as such Karate, as practised in Okinawa, was hardly seen. That imbalance has persisted to this day.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Goju Ryu is Okinawan and has always been, since the days of Shotokan, one of the most popular Karate styles, also prominent the West. I don't know why you write that Okinawan styles, with their distinct training methods, have been hardly seen. They clearly have.

 

[K-man]

Goju Ryu is Okinawan and has always been, since the days of Shotokan, one of the most popular Karate styles, also prominent the West. I don't know why you write that Okinawan styles, with their distinct training methods, have been hardly seen. They clearly have.

Goju Ryu is Okinawan, Goju Kai is Japanese. Gogen Yamaguchi did a fantastic job promoting his style of Goju. Morio Higaonna is another who has promoted his form of Goju but that is more like the Japanese style than Okinawan. That is possibly because of the time he spent in Japan.

Now you imply that Okinawan karate is common. Well that certainly isn't the case in Australia and I'm surprised that you think it 'clearly' was available elsewhere. Perhaps you could show me where you got that impression as to my understanding it is only in relatively recent times that Okinawan Karate has become popular.

 

[elder999]

Goju Ryu is Okinawan, Goju Kai is Japanese. Gogen Yamaguchi did a fantastic job promoting his style of Goju. Morio Higaonna is another who has promoted his form of Goju but that is more like the Japanese style than Okinawan. That is possibly because of the time he spent in Japan.

Now you imply that Okinawan karate is common. Well that certainly isn't the case in Australia and I'm surprised that you think it 'clearly' was available elsewhere. Perhaps you could show me where you got that impression as to my understanding it is only in relatively recent times that Okinawan Karate has become popular.

There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not a lot of it, but it was here.....

 

[Drose427]

There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not a lot of it, but it was here.....

To play the devils advocate,

That doesn't make it necessarily popular however. I've been to a fee different states in both major and minor cities and I've personally only seen a couple of Okinawan Schools.

That said, some places even in the US are like MA hotspots. So I wouldn't be too surprised to see a Oki school in towns like that

 

[K-man]

There's been Okinawan Goju in the U.S. for my entire life, I think-certainly for my entire life in martial arts (that is to say, since 1971)....not a lot of it, but it was here.....

All I was saying was that it wasn't common. The guy who introduced karate to Australia was Goju Kai. We didn't know any different. I didn't see Okinawan Goju for another 25 years. Even now there are very few Okinawan schools in Australia that I can see.

 

[hoshin1600]

I would like to point out that George Mattson was the first to bring karate to the east coast of America. Uechi ryu 1958. And it's not rare. I would say it was the predominant karate art in the area until Cerio and Villari kenpo schools came.

I also don't agree that Morin Higaonna represents anything other than Okinawan goju. Goju has its fair share of controversy and Higaonna is not exempt but I feel without a doubt what he does is okinawan.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the clip posted, supposed to represent Traditional (Japanese) Shotokan training, they are stubbornly stuck in Kihon for the entire duration of the video.

Just sayin

Once you get past the bowing and stretching, that comes out to less than 4 minutes of kihon. I'm not personally a huge fan of this style of practicing fundamentals, but 4 minutes hardly seems excessive or likely to represent the entire class.