Difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate

[K-man]

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Take the taikyoku kata. Simpleton looking. I agree.
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I preface this by saying that righ Franklin (IMO) is not the greatest boxer.... a tremendous UFC competitor though....

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My appraisal: Fundamental Shotokan kumite pointing fighting style executed well..... Basic technique applied properly.

You see, I wouldn't have recognised anything as karate in your UFC clip.

As for the Taikyoku kata ...

... great for basic principles, balance and basic technique but nothing to use in a fight. I would rather train the Heian kata and learn the principles of kata. You will still have fundamental Shotokan technique that can be applied as you see fit, with the additional benefits, if you choose to use them.

 

[punisher73]

The biggest difference for me would have to be distance. In Japan it was a prerequisite for activities like Judo and Karate to have a competitive aspect. So instead of the grappling Okinawan style that was hands on, Japanese karate was developed with the huge sparring element you see today. That didn't exist in Okinawa although there is a trend towards competition in some Okinawan karate in recent time.

Another huge difference is the method of training. In Okinawa the training is far less formal than the regimented lines marching up and down the dojo like you see in Japan. Here they are practising kihon, or basics, and unfortunately many Western karate schools have never advanced beyond the kihon, perhaps the main reason why people with little or no karate training jump on the 'karate is useless' band wagon.

Of course that leads on to the kata and bunkai where again, the kata you normally see is kihon. It is patently obvious that you don't fight that way. It is how you learn it. However our friends who have no idea jump on kata as being useless, as they have never been shown how it is used.

There are many other differences as well but I'll follow up with more later.

Just to add on to what has been said already.

Okinawan training was very small classes and was individualized training to each student. Not all students learned kata the same way, or even the same kata in all cases. When it went to Japan, we must also remember what was happening at the time to them as a whole. This was the military build up of Japan. Karate was seen as a way to train young men for military service. Gone were the family customs and atmosphere of Okinawan karate, and it was replaced with Military style training. ALL students lined up and did things the same way to commands given. Importance was placed on doing things without asking or questioning. It was also at this point that the "rank structure" we know started to come into existence. Again, it helped with the military structure idea. To seperate karate from Judo, the throws were all but removed from what Funakoshi first taught when he arrived.

We can also see the transition from a "-jutsu" approach to the "-do" approach. The stances were lowered and elongated, the punches were now thrown with aesthetics in mind (shoulders squared with the hips, punch at a 90 degree out from the shoulder and parallel to the floor, etc.). We can see these changes from Funakoshi's first book and what he first taught to the changes that were made later and became Shotokan.

Also, due to the changes in distancing and certain moves altered removed from their okinawan counterparts (for example, the throw in Wansu was changed to a jumping/turning technique in Empi) the katas were now viewed as a way to practice their kihon and applications bordered on the ridiculous due to lack of understanding.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Not at all. Shotokan is not what Funakoshi envisaged just as Goju Kai has a totally different perspective to Okinawan Goju. They were developed the way they were to teach to the masses. Shotokan and Goju Kai were the dominant styles by far. They were taught in a different way for different reasons.

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I'm not as versed as you in the shift from Karate-Jutsu to Shotokan. I want to look into Goju Kai as well. I'm going to look closer at the different reasons...

Nothing to do with better. You want to enter competition, the Japanese way is far more defined. You want to understand kata you have to search for yourself the way it is encouraged in Okinawa. But that doesn't mean that a Shotokan practitioner can't also do that. Just that is probably not frequently taught that way.

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I don't see kata as a competition exercise. I know the Japanese or others may. I look at the Japanese kata the same way I would look at the Okinawan or Korean versions..., I get your philosophical drift between the two in practice....

I'm not at all concerned with flaws. The only flaws are in my understanding. I don't believe that any of the Heian kata are flawed. I think that Gogen Yamaguchi attempted to copy parts of the Heian kata without understanding what the Heian kata were teaching. We ended up with Goju Taikyoku kata that was just for training basics without much actual meaning.

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Well we are looking at kata differently so some degree. Unlike you, I believe the Taikyoku kata have immense meaning....

You see, I wouldn't have recognised anything as karate in your UFC clip.

OK....

As for the Taikyoku kata ...
{edit video}

... great for basic principles, balance and basic technique but nothing to use in a fight. I would rather train the Heian kata and learn the principles of kata.

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Disagree strongly.

You will still have fundamental Shotokan technique that can be applied as you see fit, with the additional benefits, if you choose to use them.

Agree....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Just to add on to what has been said already....
Also, due to the changes in distancing and certain moves altered removed from their okinawan counterparts (for example, the throw in Wansu was changed to a jumping/turning technique in Empi) the katas were now viewed as a way to practice their kihon and applications bordered on the ridiculous due to lack of understanding.

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I see flaws, some adaptations are ridiculous so far as. The flaws, adaptations are secondary to the principles of kata as a karate training exercise. The universal principles of kata are firmly in Shotokan kata, as well as the universal principles of karate are in all of Shotokan karate. Is Shotokan the best representation of traditional karate principles,? IMO, NO.

That's my general findings....

 

[K-man]

Well we are looking at kata differently so some degree. Unlike you, I believe the Taikyoku kata have immense meaning....

OK, I'm prepared to listen. What do you see in Taikyoku kata that you couldn't achieve simply with drilling the kihon?

 

[punisher73]

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I see flaws, some adaptations are ridiculous so far as. The flaws, adaptations are secondary to the principles of kata as a karate training exercise. The universal principles of kata are firmly in Shotokan kata, as well as the universal principles of karate are in all of Shotokan karate. Is Shotokan the best representation of traditional karate principles,? IMO, NO.

That's my general findings....

I agree. That is the nice thing about a training device such as kata. Even with minor changes and in some cases major changes, you can still see the "original template" so to speak from the Shorin-Ryu katas still practiced and see applications of those. Like you stated, the principles are still there for those who want to find them. A VERY good example is Iain Abernethy (Wado-Ryu background), but he has gone through and developed excellent kata applications for a civilian self-defense system to end it very quickly.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I agree. That is the nice thing about a training device such as kata. Even with minor changes and in some cases major changes, you can still see the "original template" so to speak from the Shorin-Ryu katas still practiced and see applications of those. Like you stated, the principles are still there for those who want to find them. A VERY good example is Iain Abernethy (Wado-Ryu background), but he has gone through and developed excellent kata applications for a civilian self-defense system to end it very quickly.

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Yes, IA has done some very important work there. Particularly if you are in-fighting, say a boxer.... Or certain self defense adaptations. Traditional karate is really very layered, like an onion.
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That's one of the very important points there, that the templates carried over, however changed or made for conditioning rather than actual fighting, for instance. The greater truth (IMO) is that kata is conditioning to fight.

 

[ShotoNoob]

OK, I'm prepared to listen. What do you see in Taikyoku kata that you couldn't achieve simply with drilling the kihon?

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Well it's so elemental to the proper practice of TRADITIONAL KARATE. We have 3 main components (I know you know this cold):
Kihon,
Kata,
Kumite.
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this subject is very deep. Let me say here that you can go very far in traditional karate just practicing kihon. That's what my Machida vid was supposed to show. I know how someone as knowledgeable as you would object to that... so I didn't argue.
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Kata, in a s implied way, is kihon strung together. In doing so the way the Master's designed such, symbolized by embusen, kata takes on a whole new dimension from kihon. However, it is the principles in kihon + the principles in kata together that lauch kata into a comprehensive karate exercise, that even prepares one to become a superior fighter by itself (without kumite). However again, most us benefit and are aided by kumite, that portion of the traditional karate curriculum.
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Strangely enough, in looking at Tang Soo Do, the originators there were also strong believers in kata. So why did they adopt the modernized-like versions of Shotokan kata for the most part? Because they saw what I saw maybe....
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The genius of the Taikyoku kata, and Tang Soo Do looks to have similar versions, is it strips away all complexity so one can focus on pure principles.... And BTW, this is the way I became such an excellent striker. It's also how I became an excellent blocker--for which I have been roundly jested at even at my school--at first. Of course, I train the rounded curriculum, not just kata. Funakoshi and his mentors were very enlightened men, IMO. I still 'hate' Shotokan' as it has evolved.... Shotokan, nothwithstanding my personal feelings, is still a great karate if done well, and particularly to learn principles from. Of course knowledgeable such as yourself can learn same from the Okinawan versions, etc.
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Allow me to finish here by saying you don't physically recite Taikyoku kata (the way you see most do it on the internet). You think yourself through every single motion in every single step of Taikyoku kata. but really you should be doing this in kihon too. Few do.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Practice of Kata / TSD:

This Tang Soo Do young lady is doing a reasonable job of PRACTICING KATA. Not bad. TSD kata competition performances seem to be a little more of what kata should be,IMO, than Shotokan....
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The best example of Japanese karate kata I can think of right know is at the end of the Shotokan Karate-Do with all the blood spitting special effects.... That is dynamica kata; skill you can fight with....
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BTW: Big mistake of her's is leaning forward from waist on certain technique. Shows concentration on performing the physical move rather than on maintaining the integrity of the body position for TMA strength & power....which is mentally driven.

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S WHAT YOU DON'T WANT TO DO IN TRADITIONAL KARATE:
It'll seem like I selecting out girls for my example, there's are really good vid of guys doing 1-steps badly I just can't find right know.

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She is just physically positioning her body according to the textbook diagram steps. There is no mental discipline behind mind&body unity. Doing kihon kata his way is STUPID.[note]
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Now we have to have to make allowance for the physicality ability between men & women. But the younger CHAMPIONSHIP woman TSD hyung is pretty good, especially for her age....

Note: While it seem unkind, this black-belt TMA is absolutely going to get slaughtered in any kind of contact fight....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I DON'T LIKE THIS KATA RENDITION:
I may be all wet ,but this strikes me as someone who knows how to perfectly WALK through kata, going through motions...

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BTW: Did a little research on these basic kata, hyung, poomse,? whatever....
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The very first move by this master is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

 

[ShotoNoob]

POINT FOR NOW:
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There's alot, very alot of people who can tell you the form of techniques in these Kee Cho hyung IL[?], the Taikyoku kata, etc. That is down block, step & punch, etc. They can tell all about these moves. What they don't know is the OKINAWAN WHY behind the moves.... and it has NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the down block is actually a strike, etc.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

TANG SOO DO KATA #1:
Here's the 1st basic kata: This guy does pretty much everything in this kata that you should do, IMO. However, his emphasis & consistency are off, wrong.... got some form errors, but it's all there. He's a somewhat too physical, make allowance most are and he is very well built & physically conditioned.

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Botton Line: bear in mind it is not the physical outward steps.... in kata, or in kihon or kumite for that matter.

EDIT: Compare this TSD Instructor's opening (Correct except for that lean forward again.... you do not lean forward in this move--PERIOD!)----with the Tiger Kim opening (WRONG, WAY WRONG!).
EDIT#2: Also make allowance it is a teaching, demonstration video.....

 

[K-man]

this subject is very deep. Let me say here that you can go very far in traditional karate just practicing kihon. That's what my Machida vid was supposed to show. I know how someone as knowledgeable as you would object to that... so I didn't argue.

No doubt you can go a long way just practising kihon. That is the what most karateka do, so why would I object to that?

Strangely enough, in looking at Tang Soo Do, the originators there were also strong believers in kata. So why did they adopt the modernized-like versions of Shotokan kata for the most part? Because they saw what I saw maybe....

Sure, or that they just wanted the simplified version because they weren't interested in the original fighting systems of the traditional kata.

The genius of the Taikyoku kata, and Tang Soo Do looks to have similar versions, is it strips away all complexity so one can focus on pure principles.... Of course knowledgeable such as yourself can learn same from the Okinawan versions, etc.

Sadly the Okinawans don't have versions of Taikyoku kata. They practise the principles from the kihon.

 

[Tez3]

Did a little research on these basic kata, hyung, poomse,? whatever....

If it's TSD it's hyung. It is a simplified version of karate kata with often added kicks. I know them but much prefer Wado versions, actually prefer Wado to the Shotokan versions too.

 

[hoshin1600]

i thought i would post some Oki kata since this is a thread on it,,dont know why we got TSD vids here. but the comparison is cadence and emphisis is interesting.

 

[hoshin1600]

 

[Instructor]

Great article and discussion thank you for broadening my understanding. I was especially impressed with the Okinawan exercise implements.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The first difference it said was that the Okinawan stances are higher. I personally find that if you train in low stances its much easier to transition to high stances than vice versa.

 

[Buka]

I'm thinking that if you ask a native Okinawan Karate man this question......and a native Japanese Karate man this question.......I want to sit ringside.