Did Jujutsu and Karate ever exchange techniques?

[isshinryuronin]

The book “Secrets of the Samurai” states that jujutsu encompassed the unarmed fighting methods and that the striking and kicking arts were part of that. Essentially, the karate styles are evolutions of systemized, isolated practice of a subset of jujutsu. All karate techniques are jujutsu techniques. Not all jujutsu techniques are karate techniques.

This is not to disparage karate. The same book comments that the practitioner who isolated and became expert in the striking and kicking arts made his jujutsu much more formidable.

No doubt that jujutsu techniques found their way into karate as stated in my previous 2 posts on this thread. But to say karate is a subset of jujutsu is taking it way too far IMO. It seems you (or the book) are saying that if you take all that is not kicking or striking out of jujutsu you have karate, or what evolved into karate.

In the Chinese "Bubishi" there are descriptions of White Crane and Monk Fist kung fu techniques that closely resemble modern Okinawan karate moves which were partly founded on these kung fu styles. There are also grappling and locking moves described in that book. I don't know of any Samurai teaching jujutsu to the Chinese?

The Ryukyu Kingdom also had its native self defense "styles" that were incorporated into karate.

Suffice it to say that karate is a product of several independent art sources blended together which came into its own by the early 1800's and further evolved throughout that century.

 

[Jeff_Beish]

In the early 1960’s while learning Shorinryu karate on Okinawa many of my fellow students and sensei also practiced Judo in local dojos, including the Naha Police Dojo ("Butoku-den" Dojo). Sometimes for fun we would play Judo on the wooden floors and most everyone was proficient in Judo and/or jujitsu. Ukemi was an art then

Also, one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters. We considered Judo as a Martial Art and sport back then, before the International crowd took over control and made it into something like Sumo or free style wrestling. Yeah, go ahead and fuss, I’m old school from my start in 1952.

 

[dancingalone]

[QUOTE="Jeff_Beish, post: 2012889, member: 32948"
Also, one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters. [/QUOTE]
Eiichi Miyazato. One of Chojun Miyagi's foremost students and founder of the Jundokan. A giant in Goju-ryu.

 

[Star Dragon]

Okinawan Karate styles to this day include what is called tuite - joint locking techniques that are indeed similar or identical to methods practised in Ju-jutsu. However, their origin mostly lies in China, especially in the Chin-na methods of the White Crane style, whence they were imported to the Ryukyu islands along with much of the rest of what eventually became known as Karate.

The parallels to Ju-jutsu may at least partially be explained by the fact that the latter art has its roots in Chinese martial arts as well, as some historians assure us.

On a personal note, I will never forget how surprised I was to see variations of several techniques I knew from the Aikido I was studying at the time demonstrated in a Chinese Kung-fu movie! That was long before I acquired a more detailed knowledge about the history of the martial arts. Today I can make sense of it, however, as Aikido has its roots in Daito-ryu, which is essentially a style of (Aiki-)Ju-jutsu, so there you have the link to Chin-na and Kung-fu again.

It goes without saying that there are only so many ways to bend any given joint of the human body, so you will naturally find certain parallels between martial art systems from all different times and cultures.

But beyond that, and besides the very common phenomenon of cross pollination, of course, it is a good idea to also explore possible common origins when considering obvious similarities between distinct arts. Sometimes you may indeed be quite surprised by what you find!

 

[Jeff_Beish]

[QUOTE="Jeff_Beish, post: 2012889, member: 32948"
Also, one of the Police Dojo Judo sensei, chairman of Okinawa Judo Federation, was also the head Gojuryu karate masters.

Eiichi Miyazato. One of Chojun Miyagi's foremost students and founder of the Jundokan. A giant in Goju-ryu.[/QUOTE]

A couple photos of Miyazato sensei

 

[Jeff_Beish]

PHOTO -- Miyazato Ei'ichi O'Sensei - Goju Ryu Karate-Do Okinawa and President of the Okinawan Judo Federation. TOP: Photo of Miyazato at barracks window on Johnson Air Base, Japan (1962). BOTTOM: Miyazato Judo class at Kadana AB; Kneeling, L to R- Ree C. Fitzpatrick, Patrick J. Goldsworthy, Ei'ichi Miyazato (Sensei), Dean Tower, ? Matthews, name (?).Standing: L to R- Steve Vorweck, name(?), Dave Gorden, Walt Conlon (1962). Sorry, I took the photos and was not in either one

Since Miyazato sensei was President of the Okinawan Judo federation the U.S. Air Force would invite him to accompany the Air Force Judo Team from Okinawa to Japan when we needed a coach. He liked that because it was a free trip to Japan to see relatives and catch up on politics. He was a very good Judoka as well as Goju-ryu karate master. I remember once he drove me to his new dojo in north side of Naha and allowed me to train there for an hour or so. After that I would go up once a week to train and learn from him. Goju is a very different type of karate that I was used to and I was usually drained of energy after practice. At any rate I would never practice Matsubayashi-ryu or Goju-ryu karate formerly at a dojo again. Miyazato sensei passed away in 1999. Eiichi Miyazato : biography - Eiichi Miyazato biography, Early life, Later life, Karate career

He was quite jovial and an interesting person who liked Americans. Several times a few of us young GI’s would help him clean up and straighten up around the “Garden dojo,” that was handed down from Miyagi sensei after he died in the 1950’s. He tried to get me to leave Nagamine sensei’s dojo and take up Goguryu, but I told him it was too hard on me. However, I did workout with him some and he taught me a lot of both Judo and Goyu karate.