Karate history

[MI_martialist]

Everything, but you cannot see it.

What, in all that is sacred, has this rambling to do with your original statement that all [styles of karate] contain equal proportions of striking, grappling, and weapons???

 

[Sojobo]

then there is Japanese karate which has its own spider web of genealogy.

the genealogy is important if you are going to dissect kata. what Abernathy is trying to do is reverse engineer meaning into the kata. while it can be a useful learning tool it is a mistake to make any conclusion on the history of kata and how the practitioners of the past understood the kata. the reason being that kata changes over time. any one kata has several versions to it and due to our current limited historical knowledge and documentation of the kata we cannot know how the kata was actually done in the past. just one generation of teacher to student has a significant impact on the performance of kata.

The transmission and study of karate kata through different schools and lineages has always been a tricky subject to get your head round.

The parable of the blind men and the elephant - springs to mind!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Everything, but you cannot see it.

You're now rambling that it's not about the style, when you started out saying something about styles. You can't now say it's our fault that we're looking at styles, when you started out there.

Now, if you want to discuss what a well-rounded approach is, that's entirely different, but that's not where you started in this discussion. When you are inconsistent, it's not your audience's fault that they can't understand what you're rambling about.

 

[hoshin1600]

I should stop trying to have these conversations. Your thinking is so fragmented, convoluted, and tainted by styles that it is almost impossible to even see where you are coming from.

How many of your "styles" (karate, or whatever) has an inner forearm inside to outside movement type of "block"?

Again, some version of, some semblance of...using the inner forearm to "block".

Look at the "blocking" arm...does that exist in every "style"? Does that position, not the movement to get you there, etc., but simply the position...does it exist?

you are more than welcome to put forth a logical argument. asking round about questions with no follow up does not help your position nor does it convince anyone or sway them to take your opinion seriously. if your stick man has a point to it then please explain further.

what I showed is not a block...it is a position that the body finds itself in...is there a "style" that never sees anyone ever in that position?

i will have to assume that your point is that all styles use this arm position, this position is for grappling, thus all styles do grappling.

in the stick man figure on the right he is holding his left hand and arm in a particularly well known position. this position is common not because of any application but rather due to the structure of the human body. (i will try not to go to deep into physics, biology and bio mechanics) the arm is held at an approximate 90 degree angle because the arm is a 3rd class lever and this position has the most mechanical advantage for both isometric and concentric actions. in other words if you look at the arch of the distal segment of the arm, the center of the arch is where the muscles are at their strongest. also due to the way the muscles contract this is also the strongest point for isometric contraction. in application terms this is the sweet spot for any action the arm needs to make.

in Choki Motobu's 1926 book okinawan Kempo there are 32 pictures all explaining different applications of karate moves. 19 of which use this arm position. not one application, not one picture shows anything that could remotely be described as or mistaken as grappling. there are however 10 pictures that show him grabbing the attacker wrist as he strikes with the other hand. and to your comment...all 19 pictures showing him using this action, he is using it as a block as a response to a punch, but i digress....

the simple fact is that solo kata would not be the most efficient way to pass along or teach grappling. the most effective way to teach grappling skills is thru partner drills or paired kata. if karate was designed to impart grappling skills then the curriculum would include paired drills specific to grappling, and these are absent. i would not go so far as to say that past masters did not know Jiao Di or tegumi they most likely were familiar with it but that does not mean that there are hidden techniques in the kata that are grappling.

 

[Sojobo]

the simple fact is that solo kata would not be the most efficient way to pass along or teach grappling. the most effective way to teach grappling skills is thru partner drills or paired kata. if karate was designed to impart grappling skills then the curriculum would include paired drills specific to grappling, and these are absent. i would not go so far as to say that past masters did not know Jiao Di or tegumi they most likely were familiar with it but that does not mean that there are hidden techniques in the kata that are grappling.

Hand me back my drum please sir!

 

[MI_martialist]

A different discussion...solo kata should never be done without a complete and thorough of the actual applications of the movements and components. This way, the transmission has been done, and is reinforced by kata, not transmitted by kata.

Hand me back my drum please sir!

 

[MI_martialist]

A different discussion...solo kata should never be done without a complete and thorough understanding of the actual applications of the movements and components. This way, the transmission has been done, and is reinforced by kata, not transmitted by kata.

 

[hoshin1600]

Hand me back my drum please sir!

Sorry I don't understand your post. I'm sure it's not ment to be obscure but I missed the point.

 

[Sojobo]

Define complete and thorough!

Not possible!

Principles of movement, stratagems and mindsets....

 

[hoshin1600]

A different discussion...solo kata should never be done without a complete and thorough of the actual applications of the movements and components. This way, the transmission has been done, and is reinforced by kata, not transmitted by kata.

Have you been around karate much? There is a huge gap in knowledge about the kata bunkai. Most people have no idea what anything means other than performing basic kihon in different combinations on different directions and vectors.

 

[Sojobo]

Sorry I don't understand your post. I'm sure it's not ment to be obscure but I missed the point.

I've banged that drum!

I'm a Wado karate-ka and have always struggled with the bunkai/grappling link.

 

[hoshin1600]

I've banged that drum!

I'm a Wado karate-ka and have always struggled with the bunkai/grappling link.

Better a drum than a forehead which is about where this thread is going.

 

[Tez3]

...solo kata should never be done without a complete and thorough of the actual applications of the movements and components.

without a complete and thorough what exactly? Shower, neat whisky downed in one?

This way, the transmission has been done, and is reinforced by kata, not transmitted by kata.

Transmission of what?

 

[Buka]

Once again.....I am thread confused.

 

[Sojobo]

Once again.....I am thread confused.

I'm in my 50's - everything's confusing'

 

[hoshin1600]

Once again.....I am thread confused.

ugg,, i do wish you would listen ...it's perfectly simple. if your not getting your hair cut, then you don't have to move your brothers coat to the lower peg. you simply collect his note, before lunch, after you"ve done your scripture prep,when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes to the lower peg, greet the visitors and report to Mr. bindey that you've had your check signed..........................

 

[Buka]

ugg,, i do wish you would listen ...it's perfectly simple. if your not getting your hair cut, then you don't have to move your brothers coat to the lower peg. you simply collect his note, before lunch, after you"ve done your scripture prep,when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes to the lower peg, greet the visitors and report to Mr. bindey that you've had your check signed..........................

Finally, somebody that understands me.

Mahalo, my brother.

 

[MI_martialist]

Most of this simply because I posted that karate includes, and in fact is comprised of, weaponry / percussion / grappling. Amazing what happens when one if afraid to take the blinders of style and "what we do and do not do" off. Take them off, see martial movement for what it is...it is common to all "styles", systems, methods, schools...there are definitely some peculiarities to each, but if you look at the similarities, look at the core...the core moving the core...there are core fundamentals that do not belong to "style", they belong to the human mechanism. If you see these movements, poses, postures, bases, etc., clearly and with a core, basic mind, you see the equal use of weaponry / percussion / grappling.

Sorry you don't want to see it...it is life optimizing!!!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most of this simply because I posted that karate includes, and in fact is comprised of, weaponry / percussion / grappling. Amazing what happens when one if afraid to take the blinders of style and "what we do and do not do" off. Take them off, see martial movement for what it is...it is common to all "styles", systems, methods, schools...there are definitely some peculiarities to each, but if you look at the similarities, look at the core...the core moving the core...there are core fundamentals that do not belong to "style", they belong to the human mechanism. If you see these movements, poses, postures, bases, etc., clearly and with a core, basic mind, you see the equal use of weaponry / percussion / grappling.

Sorry you don't want to see it...it is life optimizing!!!

Again, you stated all styles, not just karate, teach all 3 in an equal amount. Even ignoring the equal amount, boxing does not teach weapons, and (Olympic) fencing does not teach striking or grappling. Those two examples were off the top of my head earlier, and you conveniently ignored both of them. I'm sure there are a ton of other arts that also ignore one or more of the areas.

 

[MI_martialist]

For a long time, electrical engineering was not taught...does that mean that electricity did not exist? Your argument is flawed.

Again, you stated all styles, not just karate, teach all 3 in an equal amount. Even ignoring the equal amount, boxing does not teach weapons, and (Olympic) fencing does not teach striking or grappling. Those two examples were off the top of my head earlier, and you conveniently ignored both of them. I'm sure there are a ton of other arts that also ignore one or more of the areas.