DF: Can BJJ work in a real fight??????

[ballen0351]

I agree, Ballen, with just about everything you said. But, here's the question. What do I reasonably need to know? I mean me... a middle aged, regular, boring guy.

Yeah that is a good question. Honestly in my professional opinion for real world self defense the best rule is Rule # 1 COMMON SENSE just like you said below. As far as Defensive tactics You dont need to know alot for most encounters. Something is better then nothing

That's the real question. It's not about what "works" or not. They all work, as you say. And... depending upon the circumstances, they all DON'T work. That's pretty much the only part where I think we diverge.

No I agree with you. That goes back to there is no 100% perfect art and even if there was it still wouldnt be effective 100% of the time. When I speak of what works Im more speaking in general terms. If you took 100 BJJ guys or TKD guys of Krav guys or what ever art you choose and they had to defend themselves against a random guy off the street in my opinion Over 50 of the trained guys would successfully avoid serious damage. Thats all I look at if 51 of 100 trained people do enough to avoid serious injury then it works. Others may say well 49 still got their buts kicked so it doesn't work and thats their opinion I have mine.

Beyond that, self defense for me is 99.9999999% about living a quiet life with my family in a safe, semi-rural area of King County. I don't go to bars, don't drink to excess and try not to be a jerk. I mitigate risk by avoiding a risky lifestyle. I enjoy living quietly and hanging out with my kids and my wife. THAT'S self defense.

Right Common sense. I agree totally

If asked whether BJJ is good for self defense, I would say it's good for me. I am relatively fit. I'm active. I can run a bit before I collapse from fatigue. If someone were to grab me, I feel like I can grip fight effectively and free myself. If someone takes me to the ground where I'm on the bottom, I feel comfortable that I can reverse my position and disengage.

Thats sound planning. Goes along with my plan as well. I have no desire or plan to ever stick around and "defend" my self. My defense is 1st and foremost to get out of dodge.

So, once again, what do I reasonably need to know? If I am a cop in an urban area? Maybe something different. But I'm not. And neither are most of you guys who are arguing relentlessly that self defense is about fighting multiple, drug crazed attackers in a ring of lava, on a bed of broken glass and dirty needles. If you want to spend your time preparing for that, knock yourselves out. Go ahead. IMO, it's like preparing for a tornado in Seattle. Could it happen? Well... I guess it's POSSIBLE. But how likely? Not very. Could I find myself at the mercy of a gang of thugs? Sure. I guess it's within the realm of possibility. But is it likely? No. Not even remotely.

And the guys claiming their art trains them to fight off multiple attackers and drug crazed zombies are full of it. You may "train" in it but facing 3 or 4 dudes your in trouble no matter what art you know unless its Glock Fu. I was once in a fight with 3 cousins while trying to arrest one the other two attacked me. Had any of them had any fighting skills at all Id be dead. I had one guy on my back trying to get me in a choke hold and get my gun out of my holster, as I was fighting with the other two. Thankfully they were all small guys 140 lbs range Im about 100 pounds heavier and about 6 to 8 inches taller then they were and none of them could fight but it still took me several min to get control of the situation and it took one lucky punch that K.O.ed one attacker so it became 2 on 1. So what Im saying is it was more luck then skill. The only thing that my training helped me with was not to panic and stay relaxed and deliberate in what I was doing.

Regarding specific techniques, it's clear that some of you guys have some gross misunderstandings of what BJJ is and isn't. This same sort of argument from ignorance came up in another thread. As I said then, I don't care what you do. I hope you enjoy your training and presume you're getting what you need from it. Have fun. It obviously makes sense to you. I try to be very careful not to make presumptions about what you train or how you train, and to only comment on what you choose to share. Because, beyond that, I don't know what your style teaches... and even if I did, I don't know what your school teaches. I'm asking you guys to reciprocate. You clearly don't know the first thing about BJJ beyond what seems to me to be self serving propaganda.

I think part of the BJJ vs others tit for tat comes from the "I'll put them to sleep" mentality as the answer to all problems you get fro some BJJ guys. Ive seen it on here and Ive seen it in real life talking to guys that I know that train. To be fair most of these guys either dont really train or dont train seriously. The put them to sleep or snap their elbow talk is just that talk. On the flip side the same can be said for the "My arts too deadly" or "Ill rip out his throat" nonsense. So just as much as your point that guys commenting here dont know much or anything about BJJ the same is true of other pro-BJJ members talking about other arts.
Like I said at the end of the day any training is better then none. If the topic is whats effective then Id say most main stream arts are effective. If the question is whats better or best well that is an opinion and there is no right answer. That is like asking who is the best Quarterback ever to play in the NFL, or the best Basket Ball player ever, there is no right answer.

 

[Steve]

Ballen, I had initially quoted your post, but removed it because I think we're largely aligned on this one. i want to be clear that, as I wrote most of the post above, it wasn't with you in mind.

As an aside, this gets back to my ideas about "self defense" and whether anyone is (or even whether it's possible to be) an expert in self defense. The term is too large and abstract to be helpful, and I think it's bandied about more as a sales pitch than as any legitimate measure of proficiency. And frankly, the bulk of self defense training seems more to me like, "surviving lapses of judgement in which I intentionally put myself at risk by being in dangerous places, provoking dangerous people I should probably have avoided in the first place."

 

[ballen0351]

Ballen, I had initially quoted your post, but removed it because I think we're largely aligned on this one. i want to be clear that, as I wrote most of the post above, it wasn't with you in mind.

Oh I know but I think this is a cool topic if people can leave the elementary school play ground talk mines bigger then yours out of it

 

[K-man]

As an aside, this gets back to my ideas about "self defense" and whether anyone is (or even whether it's possible to be) an expert in self defense. The term is too large and abstract to be helpful, and I think it's bandied about more as a sales pitch than as any legitimate measure of proficiency. And frankly, the bulk of self defense training seems more to me like, "surviving lapses of judgement in which I intentionally put myself at risk by being in dangerous places, provoking dangerous people I should probably have avoided in the first place."

I think you are spot on with this comment. The great majority of people training MA never get to BB level and in reality, even though it is a great achievement it doesn't make you a competent street fighter let alone an expert in SD. (And I would be the first to acknowledge the effort to achieve a BJJ black belt.) I know when I got my BB in aikido there was no way I felt I could use what I had learned in a real situation and that was on top of more than twenty years of other training. Self defence is, as you say, avoiding bad situations rather than ridding the world of bad guys. I raise my eyebrows at some people that claim to be self defence experts, but some do know what they are talking about from their background and experience, but they are small in number and top of the pile. Hopefully ordinary people training pick up enough skills to get away from trouble if the brown stuff hits the rotating blades.
:asian:

 

[Hanzou]

I think part of the BJJ vs others tit for tat comes from the "I'll put them to sleep" mentality as the answer to all problems you get fro some BJJ guys. Ive seen it on here and Ive seen it in real life talking to guys that I know that train. To be fair most of these guys either dont really train or dont train seriously. The put them to sleep or snap their elbow talk is just that talk. On the flip side the same can be said for the "My arts too deadly" or "Ill rip out his throat" nonsense. So just as much as your point that guys commenting here dont know much or anything about BJJ the same is true of other pro-BJJ members talking about other arts.

To be fair, there's far more examples of putting someone to sleep in a SD situation or a fight than ripping someone's throat out, because its far easier to choke someone out than to rip their throat out.

So when a BJJ exponent says they could choke someone out in a SD situation or a fight, I tend to believe them. The other group saying that their art is "too deadly" and could rip people's balls or adam's apple from their bodies are claims I just can't take seriously.

 

[K-man]

To be fair, there's far more examples of putting someone to sleep in a SD situation or a fight than ripping someone's throat out, because its far easier to choke someone out than to rip their throat out.

So when a BJJ exponent says they could choke someone out in a SD situation or a fight, I tend to believe them. The other group saying that their art is "too deadly" and could rip people's balls or adam's apple from their bodies are claims I just can't take seriously.

So you training is effective and everyone else's is not!
Call!
:bs1:

 

[ballen0351]

To be fair, there's far more examples of putting someone to sleep in a SD situation or a fight than ripping someone's throat out, because its far easier to choke someone out than to rip their throat out.

So when a BJJ exponent says they could choke someone out in a SD situation or a fight, I tend to believe them. The other group saying that their art is "too deadly" and could rip people's balls or adam's apple from their bodies are claims I just can't take seriously.

Except the only time I've ever heard anyone talk about ripping out throats and being "too deadly" is when a non karate guy is taking shots at a karate guy. Just like when someone tells me there answer to a fight is put someone to sleep. Both are nonsense. As a cop I roll up and your choking someone out or already choked someone out guess who I'm locking up for a felony assault

 

[Hanzou]

Except the only time I've ever heard anyone talk about ripping out throats and being "too deadly" is when a non karate guy is taking shots at a karate guy. Just like when someone tells me there answer to a fight is put someone to sleep. Both are nonsense. As a cop I roll up and your choking someone out or already choked someone out guess who I'm locking up for a felony assault

Really? When Ryan Hall choked some clown out who was harassing and being violent towards him outside a restaurant, the cops were pretty understanding. Additionally he did it right in front of the cops.

 

[ballen0351]

Really? When Ryan Hall choked some clown out who was harassing and being violent towards him outside a restaurant, the cops were pretty understanding. Additionally he did it right in front of the cops.

Yeah that's the same video that's always posted

Like I said if I got that call. Halls arrested, the drunk guys arrested, and his friend that's stepping on drunk guys throat towards the beginning of the tape is arrested. It may get dropped later but choking someone out in my state is a felony assault. You better have a good reason why you did it. He was good to go when he mounted him and was holding him down. Once he followed him outside it was no longer self defense and was a fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah that's the same video that's always posted

There's plenty of vids throughout web showing people getting choked out in fights. Its fairly common, even among people who are not trained because the headlock is so well known among the populace.

I have yet to see one where I guy gets his throat or balls ripped out.

 

[Hanzou]

So you training is effective and everyone else's is not!

No. I'm saying that going for a choke in a SD or a fight is a viable method, since its not difficult to choke someone out, especially if you're trained.

Ripping out throats and testicles is pure fantasy.

In short, a Purple, Brown, or Black belt in Bjj is fully capable of choking someone out, and even breaking limbs. A martial artist ripping out throats and testicles? Not a chance.

 

[ballen0351]

There's plenty of vids throughout web showing people getting choked out in fights. Its fairly common, even among people who are not trained because the headlock is so well known among the populace.

Yes but that's the one that always posted to show how great BJJ is. A professional BJJ fighter vs a drunk moron.

I have yet to see one where I guy gets his throat or balls ripped out.

im still waiting for someone to show me where someone really says that and is serious. Other then you

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No. I'm saying that going for a choke in a SD or a fight is a viable method, since its not difficult to choke someone out, especially if you're trained.

Ripping out throats and testicles is pure fantasy.

Agree with you 100% on this.

Besides, even if you may be able to ripping out throats and testicles (I have never seen that happened in my lifetime yet), you may not want to go that far. If you choke someone out, it will give you enough time to get away. That's much more civilized way to solve your "self-defense" problem.

There is a big difference between the striking art vs. the grappling art. In striking art, you have to hurt your opponent badly. If grappling art, you don't have to.

 

[ballen0351]

Agree with you 100% on this.

Besides, even if you may be able to ripping out throats and testicles (I have never seen that happened in my lifetime yet), you may not want to go that far. If you choke someone out, it will give you enough time to get away. That's much more civilized way to solve your "self-defense" problem.

There is a big difference between the striking art vs. the grappling art. In striking art, you have to hurt your opponent badly. If grappling art, you don't have to.

So striking arts have no grappling? And again I'd like to see where a serious striking art practitioner has said in a fight I'm going to rip some dudes throat out.

 

[K-man]

No. I'm saying that going for a choke in a SD or a fight is a viable method, since its not difficult to choke someone out, especially if you're trained.

Firstly, BJJ is not the only art that trains chokes. Secondly, legislation around the world now puts you at risk of prosecution if you use a choke, regardless of the outcome of the persecution.

Ripping out throats and testicles is pure fantasy.

Ripping out throats may well be fantasy but grabbing the throat or hitting or squeezing testicles are valid techniques in self defence. But here, even grabbing the throat is subject to choking legislation.

In short, a Purple, Brown, or Black belt in Bjj is fully capable of choking someone out, and even breaking limbs. A martial artist ripping out throats and testicles? Not a chance.

And any one of my yellow belts also has the knowledge to choke someone out and break joints. Is that meant to prove something?

 

[K-man]

Agree with you 100% on this.

Besides, even if you may be able to ripping out throats and testicles (I have never seen that happened in my lifetime yet), you may not want to go that far. If you choke someone out, it will give you enough time to get away. That's much more civilized way to solve your "self-defense" problem.

There is a big difference between the striking art vs. the grappling art. In striking art, you have to hurt your opponent badly. If grappling art, you don't have to.

And it's all black and white? There is no striking in aikido and there's no grappling in karate? Response to an attack has to be appropriate or you are going to get yourself into trouble. Choking may seem humane but choke a drunk who subsequently dies from asphyxiation and you will at very least be facing a manslaughter charge.

A bouncer in Australia is no longer allowed to use chokes as a form of restraint for that reason.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes but that's the one that always posted to show how great BJJ is. A professional BJJ fighter vs a drunk moron.

Well, it sort of does show how great Bjj is. Ryan Hall neutralized a violent person without seriously hurting or destroying him. He did it in a calm manner that exuded all of the qualities of Budo and Bjj.

im still waiting for someone to show me where someone really says that and is serious. Other then you

Well that's my point; You placed choking and limb breaking in the same category of nonsense as throat ripping, when in reality, limb breaking and especially choking are perfectly viable for someone trained to do exactly that. I would actually put choking in a high percentile in terms of viable tactics in a SD situation.

Example;

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/femal...rapist-to-sleep-with-triangle-choke-in-dubai/

 

[Steve]

I'm reluctant to add fuel to the fire, but here are a couple of guys in LA for a BJJ tournament who stopped a robbery.

Here's a car thief in Sao Paulo subdued by a guy using simple BJJ control in mount.

Here's a thief on a bus subdued by a jiu jitsu guy using RNC as a control:

Here's one with terrible music on it, but shows a smaller guy being accosted by a muscular, shirtless person and uses Jiu Jitsu to defend himself:

I wish I could find the video, but it appears to have been taken down. But here's an account of a guy in a wheelchair using BJJ to foil a convenience store robbery:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ycn-10791647

Here's a guy in Philly who was taken down by a guy with a gun, put him in a triangle, used that to sweep and then "beat him with his own gun."

http://msn.foxsports.com/ufc/story/...customer-who-knows-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-110613

Knee on belly is an excellent control position:

 

[ballen0351]

Well, it sort of does show how great Bjj is. Ryan Hall neutralized a violent person without seriously hurting or destroying him. He did it in a calm manner that exuded all of the qualities of Budo and Bjj

I would think ANY professional fighter could deal with a drunk moron. Who by the video I watched never actually hit or struck Hall. He got in his face and Hall took him down. The guys friend pushed him outside and Hall jumped on his back and choked him out. Hell a nontrained sober person should be able to take care of a drunk loud mouth.

Well that's my point; You placed choking and limb breaking in the same category of nonsense as throat ripping, when in reality, limb breaking and especially choking are perfectly viable for someone trained to do exactly that. I would actually put choking in a high percentile in terms of viable tactics in a SD situation.

Example;

http://www.bjjee.com/bjj-news/femal...rapist-to-sleep-with-triangle-choke-in-dubai/

i placed limb breaking and choking in the nonsense catagory because thats a great way to end up in jail. Just like if you did rip a throat out you would end up in jail. Its a poor choice for almost all encounters. Im not saying chokes cant be done but you better have a real good reason why like preventing a Rape. Which by the way again any trained fighter of most Main stream arts can do.
Stoping a Rape is not unique to BJJ.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm reluctant to add fuel to the fire, but here are a couple of guys in LA for a BJJ tournament who stopped a robbery.

Here's a car thief in Sao Paulo subdued by a guy using simple BJJ control in mount.

Here's a thief on a bus subdued by a jiu jitsu guy using RNC as a control:

Here's one with terrible music on it, but shows a smaller guy being accosted by a muscular, shirtless person and uses Jiu Jitsu to defend himself:

I wish I could find the video, but it appears to have been taken down. But here's an account of a guy in a wheelchair using BJJ to foil a convenience store robbery:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=ycn-10791647

Here's a guy in Philly who was taken down by a guy with a gun, put him in a triangle, used that to sweep and then "beat him with his own gun."

http://msn.foxsports.com/ufc/story/...customer-who-knows-brazilian-jiu-jitsu-110613

Knee on belly is an excellent control position:

Again I don't think anyone said BJJ cant work. Remember I said all arts will work. I can find clips of TKD guys or Karate guys or guys with CConceal Carry permits doing the same as you posted.