Deflecting Hammer

[kenmpoka]

Thank you bob for the clip. Although, I don't think the tek was executed real good. Too much telegraphing in the upper body in the beginning, and also the foot work should be a push-drag and not a step pull.

:asian:

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

Just adding to what kenmpoka said, the key in the technique is the direction of the downward strike/block. As I was taught:

The straight front kick is coming in from 12:00. I would step towards 7:30 and execute the downward strike to the leg. I am now oriented on the 1:30 to 7:30 line, and my strike hits the attacker's legs on the 4:30 to 10:30 line. That cancels both the width and depth of the attacker by drawing the leg past you and rotating the attacker counterclockwise. (If you strike along the 3:00 to 9:00 line, you only upset the width, and the attacker can EASILY respond with a spinning back kick, as my instructor demonstrated rather cruelly on me once ).

If the attacker wants to hit with a punch, about the only one that can be easily launched would be a right backfist. But the attacker's body is rotating counterclockwise, so launching it would require the balance of an Olympic athlete.

Hope that clarifies things. I REALLY like this technique; it's fast, harsh, and really helped me understand the heighth-width-depth issues.

Tad

 

[fanged_seamus]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

You are moving towards 7:30 (facing 1:30) if the attack is coming from 12:00 (think of a clock). You then strike with an outward, downward block/strike, not a parry. A parry redirects with minimal force, and misses by inches. Here, you are STRIKING the lower leg with force, drawing it past you at an angle. If the technique were done with a parry, I don't know that you'd upset your attacker's balance sufficiently.

That's my interpretation, anyway. I could be wrong.

Tad Finnegan

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Here goes all of the posts of what was wrong with it. Everyone look out! Let the Kenpo killing begin. I think it takes guts to put yourself on film for everyone to critique your every move over and over. Although I do not agree with how he did the tech., I will commend whoever this is for sharing the art and helping to pass it on.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



The curvilinear path of action used by the elbow is very important to note here because of the angle of entry it utilizes at it's point of impact. In other words... If I were throwing a linear punch after deflecting the kick I would want to be comming from 6:00, but since I am using a curvilinear path of action with the elbow... the force of the elbow strike is maximized from 7:30. Thanks for the discussion.

The path of action may be different but at the point of contact they are in the same place. I believe the main reason for stepping to 6:00 is for economy of motion in using the elbow strike. Stepping to six allows you to parry the kick while your arm goes back on the 6 line. It then cuts the circle in half and turns into an elbow strike. This also allows fr more travel distance and greater power in your strike. If you step to 7:30 and do a downward block the orbit of your block is not conducive to one continuos motion turning it into an elbow strike. Th motion becomes choppy while you adjust the orbit and it is not physically possibe to make this motion continuos. There isalso less travel distance, hence less power. The body does not work this way. Having said all that I really don't think it matters. I have seen people do this tech. both ways. I think stepping to 6 is more efficient but I still think stepping to 7:30 will get the job done. I mean it is an elbow strike after all and they are hard to recover from if they are landed.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo



Where does travel time come into the picture of power? Power is generated by speed and mass, mass being the primary, speed enhancing it. My thoughts are to move the mass and not create new points of origin if unnecessary, or to throw it in a wider orbit and have something else hit you in the course of your action. Would you please explain the hypothesis of travel time?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

Not time, distance. Travel distance is what I am talking about. I agree with you Clyde, it is speed and mass. But more speed is generated the further away you are, up to a point of course. Can you hit something harder with your hand on the target, or the hand a few feet away with a wind up? In this particulr case the wind up is the motion of the parry. This is where the economy of motion comes in, the parry becomes the strike while using the back up mass from springing forward and the borrowed force of your opponent falling into it. I am not creating new points of origin that was my point, staying in an efficient orbit and using te motion of the parry to become the strike. This also aids in accuracy, which is actually more important than speed and power.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

I agree with what you have to say. That is why I said to be efficient the parry is your wind up. It was just a term. In actuality you do not wind up your parry becomes your strike so in fact your opponent does not have time to react. I think we are saying the same thing in a different way. One thing I will say though is that some kenpo people take the efficiency thing too far, (not you in particular clyde) and tend to forget that to hurt someone you have to hit them really hard. I am aware of the term big circles cause big problems but I see a lot of people who worry too much about speed and constipate their motion and do not have any real penetrating power.

 

[eternalwhitebelt]

Originally posted by kenpo3631

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

I second that.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt



The path of action may be different but at the point of contact they are in the same place. I believe the main reason for stepping to 6:00 is for economy of motion in using the elbow strike. Stepping to six allows you to parry the kick while your arm goes back on the 6 line. It then cuts the circle in half and turns into an elbow strike. This also allows fr more travel distance and greater power in your strike. If you step to 7:30 and do a downward block the orbit of your block is not conducive to one continuos motion turning it into an elbow strike. Th motion becomes choppy while you adjust the orbit and it is not physically possibe to make this motion continuos. There isalso less travel distance, hence less power. The body does not work this way. Having said all that I really don't think it matters. I have seen people do this tech. both ways. I think stepping to 6 is more efficient but I still think stepping to 7:30 will get the job done. I mean it is an elbow strike after all and they are hard to recover from if they are landed.

Where does travel time come into the picture of power? Power is generated by speed and mass, mass being the primary, speed enhancing it. My thoughts are to move the mass and not create new points of origin if unnecessary, or to throw it in a wider orbit and have something else hit you in the course of your action. Would you please explain the hypothesis of travel time?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt



Not time, distance. Travel distance is what I am talking about. I agree with you Clyde, it is speed and mass. But more speed is generated the further away you are, up to a point of course. Can you hit something harder with your hand on the target, or the hand a few feet away with a wind up? In this particulr case the wind up is the motion of the parry. This is where the economy of motion comes in, the parry becomes the strike while using the back up mass from springing forward and the borrowed force of your opponent falling into it. I am not creating new points of origin that was my point, staying in an efficient orbit and using te motion of the parry to become the strike. This also aids in accuracy, which is actually more important than speed and power.

I've found that the only time distance is needed is for whipping/snapping, other than that, it's not necessary. I've relied on body fusion with my strikes and keep my motion tight to utilize the mass more effectively combined with Point of Origin. The closer to my opponent I am the better, it nulls the zones of height, width, and depth when done correctly, or in essence, vertical grappling with the ability to drop weight into a strike, and to use your stances, body and weapon torque to maximize your efficiency. I don't like being in zones that I would have to wind up to get a good strike in because it allows your opponent the same oppurtunities.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I have seen this clip before, but I had the opportunity to view again when someone posted this link the other day. Check out the effectiveness of a shin block against a low round kick

http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/kick-bre.mpg

Oh yeah, and in case you doubt the effectiveness of a good back kick, take a look at this....

http://www.dogbrothers.com/multimedia/horse.mpg

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

My instructor corrected me to step to 6:00 with the downward block just enough to "stretch" the kick out then push-drag in with the inward elbow. It was pointed out that when I stepped to 7:30 I was now doing the inward elbow on the 7:30-1:30 line instead of straight in on the 12:00-6:00 line. It made sense that their weight is moving on that line, so to get borrowed force you have to be on that line as well.

Unless you are striking perpendicular to your opponents path of action, you will have some component of their force moving in your direction. For instance most of the replies have said to step to 7:30 because it will take you off the line of attack (at least for a front kick).

Quick mechanics lesson: Use the standard clock as a reference. You are standing in the center of the clock. Your attacker throws a kick that will travel from the 12:00 mark to the 6:00 mark. For arguments sake, you step to 7:30. By doing so you've changed your angle by 45 degrees (every 30 minutes=15 degrees). Let's work with some numbers to make this a little easier to understand. Let's say that your opponent kicks at you with a force of 100 (we'll stay unitless for simplicity). This means that you will only encounter the amount of force directed 45 degrees off of his line of attack or 100 cosine (45), which equals about 70. So that means that your 100 will meet his 70 at the point of impact making an impact of 170. If 200 was the maximum amount you could collide with or 100% of the possible collision then 170 is equal to 85% of the maximum possible force achieved from the collision.

This means that even if you were to deviate to 7:30 and maintain your 7:30 to 1:30 line of attack, you would still hit with 85% of the total possible force. However, if you were to adopt a slightly different path of attack, for instance 1:00, you would increase your percentage from 85% to 93.3 %. Couple this with the fact that you've decreased your attackers ability to smack ya', and you've got a pretty sweet trade-off. A lot of safety for a little bit of power. Pretty good deal if you ask me.

This also doesn't take into account the fact that you driving a weapon through a curvilinear path of action (i.e. you will use your hips to create torque for the elbow strike), creating even more force. Or even the fact that the attacker is so over-committed with their kick that your block causes them to fall into you with the back of their head (I've seen, and had this happen to and for me).

Hopefully this makes sense. I really do love this technique, it's simple yet effective.

 

[feintem]

facing 12:00 step off to 8:00 into a right nuetral using a right downward parring block utalizing borrowed force,step drag to 1:30 with an inward elbow to the side of the head , if he is not on his back use your left hand to check , it will create a bracing angle.........if you feel like you need to add insult to injury step to a left forward bow toward 4:30 sweeping their front leg at the same time exicute a dragons claw to the throat, it will come from the inward elbow, unfold the elbow and conture up the body to the throat. (slamming them to the floor)





This is one way I do it, one way of many



-Michael-