Deflecting Hammer

[Kirk]

Now again, not an expert here, so hopefully someone with a LOT
more knowledge than I will chime in ... but I think that
if you did a knee block here, then you'd have to check inward
toward and between your opponent's right shoulder and bicep
as the knee comes down. The problem there is ... (I think )
that you haven't at that time canceled a zone. With the down
block, the attacker's stance is increased quite a bit as the block
goes out past your body, and you've effectively canceled his
height zone.

maybe?!?

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Roland

...you do not need to block!

Yourself and Kempojujutsu have very good points. In Dragon Kenpo the upward is not taught. In my Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu both upward and downward blocking is not taught. We either use ashi sabaki - tai sabaki combinations or knee blocking.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

 

[Klondike93]

Here's how it was explained to me :

I thought you were suppose to step back to 7:30 deflect the kick and slide in with the inward elbow.

My instructor corrected me to step to 6:00 with the downward block just enough to "stretch" the kick out then push-drag in with the inward elbow. It was pointed out that when I stepped to 7:30 I was now doing the inward elbow on the 7:30-1:30 line instead of straight in on the 12:00-6:00 line. It made sense that their weight is moving on that line, so to get borrowed force you have to be on that line as well.


:asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Stepping off line will take away the "Borrowed Force" componant of this lesson plan technique idea. Your opponent is supposed to "fall into" your elbow strike as he plants excessively forward from his kicking assault as you exploit the "defelction."

Thanks Doc, for putting into words what I could not. This almost exactly how my instructor explained it to me why you step to 6 and 7:30 as I was doing.


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

For our group it is- but we are also moving off the line of the thrust kick.

Is there a source for a video clip of this technique?

Well not that would show you what you need to know. Yep gotta manged finger myself... the result of improper hand angle or leading with fingers on an incorrect angle for an open hand redirect. The result was losing range of motion for that finger so I teach people to keep the fingers back especially for kicks.

glad I could help guys

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

In Okinawa Kempo we do not teach to down block front kicks. We use leg blocks, stop hits, parries. If they would get the kick up maybe drive an elbow into the shin or top of the foot. But I would consider this a stop hit.
Bob :asian:

We don't either- we redirect and strike as we move off line. We don't strike the shins with our hands but the "muscle" portion on the outside of the leg for this particular technique.

Having done both down-blocks and leg blocks I have to ask, which is more effective? I've jammed a few fingers from off blocks.

You took on a bigger force or your fist was not tight.

Now, the question here is, if you replace the down-block with say a knee block, how would that effect this technique? I can see the knee doing more damage, but would it put you in a poorer position for the follow ups?

The attack is not a round kick. To lift your leg and try to absorb a front thrusting ball kick would leave you on the ground and if your shins were not conditioned unable to get back up. (don't forget steel toed boots) The deflection from redirection and strike causes the opponent to rotate counterclock wise thus opening the angle of entry for the ensuing elbow. Thus the name deflecting hammer- but not trying to match forces with the kick- more like hitting and damaging as it goes by and altering his line of attack and opening up your own.

 

[Rainman]

Although I do not agree with how he did the tech., I will commend whoever this is for sharing the art and helping to pass it on.

Ditto

 

[kenpo3631]

The great thing about this technique is by moving off line from the attack you are negating his attack.

Moving off line? To where?

If I am understanding you correctly, are you stepping off on an angle as you block? Which brings me to another point, this technique is not done with the outside downward block, it's not a block- but a closed hand parry.

I'll explain myself more later, but are you describing stepping to an angle Rob?

 

[kenpo3631]

Originally posted by Roland

.. 'Deflecting' Hammer, right?
I have never heard the term Closed Hand parry before, but it does makes lots o' sense! I like it!

Well in this technique you step back to 6 o'clock. The "General" rule is when blocking step to an angle, when parrying stay on the line. In addition, if you apply this rule to this technique, you will see that if you indeed step to say 7:30 and use an outside downward block, you put your opponent out of the "close" range. This means you need to add steps to get closer to your opponent, heck, he might be at kicking or "long" range.:asian:

 

[kenpo3631]

with ALL bias....

I have seen my instructor, Huk, Mr. Trejo, Mr. T. Kelly, Sean Kelley and numerous others all step back to 6 o'clock. I feel that emulating there movements (after asking why of course) can't be wrong.:asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

So it is more like a parry but you are using a hammerfist to deflect the incoming kick? Not standing in front of the kick and apply downward block to the shin. Is this correct?
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Most of the time when I have done this. Guy throwing kick usually ends up laying on the ground grabbing his shin. What more could you ask for. I actaully had a student do this in a TKD class. The TKD student didn't apprecate the knee into the shin either.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

But if you do a downward block, don't you leave that side of your face/body exposed to some kind of strike. Also some people kick very hard won't this damage your arms/ hands if you try this.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Usually after the knee block, I step down and end up trapping one of there feet to off balance them or able to do osoto gari throw, or follow up with just a straight blast to get them to turn away.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

In Okinawa Kempo we do not teach to down block front kicks. We use leg blocks, stop hits, parries. If they would get the kick up maybe drive an elbow into the shin or top of the foot. But I would consider this a stop hit.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

So the attacker is aiming this kick to the groin, solar plex area. What do you do if they try to kick you in the knee, thigh or shin?
I am not try to convert or say my way is better. But in Okinawa Kempo the attacker can kick from ankle level to head level and the knee block or jam will work. He can also attack with either leg and the block will still work without changing stances. I have seen Muay Thai guys that would rip your arm off if you tried that on them.
Bob :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

You've got to love that block, except if your are on the receiving end of it. That was the first time I got to see that clip. several guys I work with told me about it.
Bob:asian:

 

[Doc]

Well if I may, I'd like to add to the discussion. I present the information only to continue to promote the discussion, and not to determine the correctness of anyone's interpretations other than my own. Please consider these perspectives as I understand them.

For various reasons instructors have modified this technique and added unnecessary and thematically incorrect footwork, (Web of Knowledge). This technique is designed to make you consider various, but very specific ideas, and "stepping off line" is not one of them. The idea is for the technique to teach you to deal with a straight kick when you can only step backwards. Consider perhaps an environmental restriction such as a wall or table etc.

Stepping off line will take away the "Borrowed Force" componant of this lesson plan technique idea. Your opponent is supposed to "fall into" your elbow strike as he plants excessively forward from his kicking assault as you exploit the "defelction." There are other techniques that specifically ask you to consider "stepping off line for a straight kick at the next belt level. Traditionally techniques that use sophisticated avoidance footwork are explored further down the line. Stepping backwards is a more natural response for a beginner. (Remember a person is going from no training to this technique)

The technique is named "Deflecting HAMMER" because it wants you to learn to utilize what is called a "complimentary downward block," not a parry. A Parry "rides and redirects." A "defelection is predicated on the Angle of Intersection which may vary from an Angle of Incidence (right angle) up to the angle where it no longer deflects and becomes a parry. Parry is a subcategory of a block. Blocks "check or hinder" by definition. Further, the hand is "closed" in a "hammer" position to protect the fingers at that level, thus the name of the technique, "Deflecting Hammer."

In my teaching we also consider the "Double Check Factor" as soon as a student is capable of assimilation of the technique specific information, utilizing both hands in the execution. Executed properly this technique is quite effective, but care and time must be factored into a students learning to effectively execute it.

Changing, or failing to consider any of the above factors does not make the technique NOT Deflecting Hammer, but it will change the lesson plan significantly and suggest alternative information while missing significate lessons to be learned from the Web of Knowledge Lesson Plan Theme of the technique.

Respectfully,

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by WilliamTLear



Who said that they were wrong?

I can offer you this though... Each of the gentlemen you mentioned have different ways of doing other techniques. How do you solve that problem? Elect an instructor of the month and do it that way? (joking)

I guess I must agree to disagree... Although I think that the discussion was a good one. It made me think and ask several people questions about how and why?

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

I agree with Mr. Lear. Nobody is wrong for their interpretations. That is why the lesson plan is designed the way it is. However there are guides throughout to issure instructors give the students an overall perspective. You may violate the Web of Knowledge if, as a teacher, you choose to, to suit your your needs. But remember it was designed to FORCE you to consider certain assaults to make your teaching more complete and the greatest benefit to your students.

 

[kenmpoka]

You are not actually meeting or blocking the kick in its path. In this instance you are redirecting the kick and moving at an angle (45) back and forth striking with the left palm to the ribs or biceps. If your timing is good, you hit the opponent right before his leg hits the ground, disturbing his width and depth setting up for a take down in so many different ways.

:asian: