Define your style of Karate

[DaveB]

This is something I try periodically with varying degrees of success.

One of the biggest misconceptions people have in martial arts is that a art/style/system is defined by the training one gets in said art.

Martial arts are passed down from teacher to student, so it is inevitable that some training methods will be unchanged, but this is incidental to the art, not definitive. We know this because as arts and teachers grow in years the training changes. Change may be slow but it is inevitable and unstoppable.

Training is the vehicle that imparts and ingrains the art, not the art it's self.

My own feeling is that the art is a combination of mechanical (the technique of moving), tactical (the science of the fight situation) and strategic (the overall gameplan) principles. When these interlock seamlessly you have a true fighting system.

So my question is, without reference to training, can.you please define how you move, how that movement fits into a fight and what your overall plan for victory is - as defined by your karate style.

 

[Cirdan]

How do you learn a style if training does not define the art? What does training define then?

How I move: On the bubbeling well.
How it fits into a fight: The basis for fast, strong and dynamic techniques while maintaining structure.
Plan for victory: Screw you guys, I am going home

 

[Touch Of Death]

Two spheres in front of my chest, two spheres in front of my legs. (Beach balls & Hippitty Hops) Punch and kick between those spheres. That's about it.

 

[DaveB]

[QUOTE Cirdan, post: 1723814, member: 8132"]How do you learn a style if training does not define the art? What does training define then?[/QUOTE]

It defines how well you achieve your goals.

If my aim in Goju Ryu karate is to have the prettiest kata then I do hours of sparring and no kata and loose in the kata competition, that doesn't mean Goju is rubbish for making kata pretty.

What and how you train in any martial art class is entirely dependent on the teacher.

Imagine trying to say that shooting is ineffective in war because the instructor made you do more press-ups than shooting.

How I move: On the bubbeling well.
How it fits into a fight: The basis for fast, strong and dynamic techniques while maintaining structure.
Plan for victory: Screw you guys, I am going home

I don't know what you mean by "on the bubbeling well"?

 

[Cirdan]

It defines how well you achieve your goals.

If my aim in Goju Ryu karate is to have the prettiest kata then I do hours of sparring and no kata and loose in the kata competition, that doesn't mean Goju is rubbish for making kata pretty.

What and how you train in any martial art class is entirely dependent on the teacher.

Imagine trying to say that shooting is ineffective in war because the instructor made you do more press-ups than shooting.

Hmm if you loose in a kata competition, in a style that focuses on kata, after having done NO kata training then it is you who have not followed the style`s training regimen.

Likewise if you never fire your gun you will be a bad shot. And? The army needs soldiers with field endurance, not a bunch of spoiled lazy marksmen.

I don't know what you mean by "on the bubbeling well"?

Means I take energy from the ground and am able to do so because I am empty to spring / being nosy.

 

[DaveB]

So here's an example. I would have started with this but I was time pressed.

Shotokan,- uses the whole body to generate power by making a solid connection with the floor but tends to move in a linear fashion using half steps from light bouncy footwork.

Tactically this leads to attempts to use distancing and timing to make decisive single shots but avoid entanglement in close quarters.

So the strategy going into any conflict situation: the Shotokan man creates space then gets in, smashing as much mass into the target as possible and out as quickly as possible until the opponent drops.

This is a generalisation, but it fits what I learned as traditional Shotokan, though my background is more non traditional.

Each area is maximised or defined by the others. Shotokan started with the ideology of destroying the opponent with one blow. So your mechanics then must be geared towards maximum power. To generate that power needs space and to land that power needs mobility.

The mechanics adapt to the mobility needs, the tactics are created to enable us to land that punch (I.e interception and countering using distance as a weapon).

Lastly the strategy puts it all together so you can take it into any fight and just adapt the details.

 

[DaveB]

Hmm if you loose in a kata competition, in a style that focuses on kata, after having done NO kata training then it is you who have not followed the style`s training regimen.

Except there are plenty of karate schools that focus far more on sparring than kata.

Your reply shows the main problem that sends people down this erroneous path: a desire to rigidly classify and box what is in fact a completely individual pursuit.

I have never encountered two teacher's who teach exactly the same regimen.

Go on any karate association website and look at the syllabus. You will find a list of goals, but not the means of attaining them. The training is up to the teacher in the class and the student outside of it. If a teacher knows a better way to teach something than the way he was taught there is no law that makes him not use it.

Unless you can produce such a law your position is untenable.

 

[donald1]

If my aim in Goju Ryu karate is to have the prettiest kata then I do hours of sparring and no kata and loose in the kata competition, that doesn't mean Goju is rubbish for making kata pretty.

not true! If you dont practice kata it will show! And will not look pretty...

EDIT: accidently quote wrong person

 

[Cirdan]

Except there are plenty of karate schools that focus far more on sparring than kata.

Your reply shows the main problem that sends people down this erroneous path: a desire to rigidly classify and box what is in fact a completely individual pursuit.

I have never encountered two teacher's who teach exactly the same regimen.

Go on any karate association website and look at the syllabus. You will find a list of goals, but not the means of attaining them. The training is up to the teacher in the class and the student outside of it. If a teacher knows a better way to teach something than the way he was taught there is no law that makes him not use it.

Unless you can produce such a law your position is untenable.

I think you just shot the straw man there
I am probably the last person here to waste my time rigidly classifying terms or argue over favorite words, a popular patime on MT tho it appears

If you want to train sparring then train sparring. If you want to train kata then train kata. You will be good at what you train. It is what you do that matters, not what you don`t do or what others are doing.

 

[DaveB]

Two spheres in front of my chest, two spheres in front of my legs. (Beach balls & Hippitty Hops) Punch and kick between those spheres. That's about it.

Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

 

[DaveB]

I think you just shot the straw man there

I am probakataly the last person here to waste my time rigidly classifying terms or argue over favorite words, a popular patime on MT tho it appears

And yet, when offered a scenario involving karate your immediate assumption was that enough kata practice that someone could compete was the norm for the group.

It is your assumptions that I shot, not any straw man.

If everyone may train as they wish, how can training be definitive of any art?

 

[O Saru]

Back on topic:

My style is Kempo & Goju Karate. I have substituted some kata with Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu kata and added Kobudo to give a more complete experience of the martial arts. Great emphasis is put on breathing and enbu-line movement. Bone hardening techniques are utilized so that students can take a tremendous amount of punishment and still continue fighting.

Bunkai is practiced during every class after kata so that students learn why kata is practiced. Students are encouraged to find their own bunkai based on their natural movement so they can use it in an actual fight.

Tournament fighting is allowed, but kata movement must be used heavily. This is both to learn control and precision.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry but that makes no sense to me.

That's because it is so advanced, only 1% of the population could possibly understand.

 

[Cirdan]

And yet, when offered a scenario involving karate your immediate assumption was that enough kata practice that someone could compete was the norm for the group.

It is your assumptions that I shot, not any straw man.

If everyone may train as they wish, how can training be definitive of any art?

You "offered" me a scenario where you, for some reason, would take part in a kata competition despite not training kata at all and then you loose said competition. Now why you would do this I sure do not understand but obviously it would be the norm for people who wish to compete in kata to train kata.

If my aim in Goju Ryu karate is to have the prettiest kata then I do hours of sparring and no kata and loose in the kata competition, that doesn't mean Goju is rubbish for making kata pretty.

Training defines the art because training is what you do in the arts. If you want to practice the art of painting then you paint. If you want to do ballet then you train ballet. But you want to do kata but train sparring? Whatever point there is supposed to be to this is lost on me, unless this is yet another self important rant against traditional training methods. Yawn

 

[DaveB]

It's not a rant against traditional training, this thread specifically asked to avoid training in the responses.

I have no problem with traditional training or TMA, but the activities you do to train in karate are not exclusive to karate. There is no copyright on the training methods of boxing that makes using a speed ball or a heavy bag or jogging, exclusively boxing. Standing on posts in horse stance does not define your martial arts as Shoalin.

The training is the route to your goal. Usually the goal of specific martial arts is to be able to use the methods encapsulated in the system tofight or defend yourself. Those methods and concepts are what define the martial art.

Look at the example I gave for Shotokan: are you seriously suggesting that whether or not a person did Sanbon or gohon kumite in class is more important, a better definition of the persons martial art than the methods and mechanics he has learned to employ?

 

[DaveB]

O'Saru, thanks for the description, but I think you've fallen into the training trap.

Your training sounds great, but I know nothing about how your karate style fights; what principles you learn and how those principles come together to win against opponent's?

Touch of Death, I'm honoured to be discussing with someone so knowledgeable. What type of ma do you study?

 

[Cirdan]

Obviously you are talking to the wall behind me rather than trying to have a conversation so I`ll leave this thread now and leave you two to continue what seems like an absolutely facinating discussion and exchange of facts and very well though out analysis of the matters at hand. Bye

 

[Touch Of Death]

O'Saru, thanks for the description, but I think you've fallen into the training trap.

Your training sounds great, but I know nothing about how your karate style fights; what principles you learn and how those principles come together to win against opponent's?

Touch of Death, I'm honoured to be discussing with someone so knowledgeable. What type of ma do you study?

Kenpo. You will find the spheres in a thing called the Universal Pattern. You put yourself in the middle. The lines represent all the possibilities, but its the circles that make you move well, which then limit your possibilities. I am sure your system uses something similar. There are quite a few patterns out there, which you may or may not find useful.

 

[Cirdan]

Kenpo. You will find the spheres in a thing called the Universal Pattern. You put yourself in the middle. The lines represent all the possibilities, but its the circles that make you move well, which then limit your possibilities. I am sure your system uses something similar. There are quite a few patterns out there, which you may or may not find useful.

Does the strong geometric shape of spheres (and the lesser circles) also aid in deflection at all angles or is this more representative of other patterns?

 

[Touch Of Death]

...so anyways, if you think of the circles as solid objects that you aren't allowed to penetrate, you will be moving alright.