define american kenpo karate

[Manny]

Please define with your own words what is American kenpo or American Kenpo Karate?

Manny

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

Do you want a definition of what it should be, or what it actually is at this point in time?

Because I think there are two completely different realities going on.....

what American Kenpo is meant to be, and what it has become overall.

 

[Manny]

Do you want a definition of what it should be, or what it actually is at this point in time?

Because I think there are two completely different realities going on.....

what American Kenpo is meant to be, and what it has become overall.

1.-What is american kenpo karate?
2.-What is actually american kenpo karate?
3.-What should be american kenpo karate?

My questions seems to be a little weird, but remeebre I am a newcomer in american kenpo karate and want to know and get involved on it so I need to know.

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Manny,

How does your instructor describe or define it? Might be a good idea to start there and see what other input might come into it.

 

[Manny]

I am a little confused because there seems there is a lot of kenpo styles out there, like American Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, Sorinji Kenpo, etc,etc.

My sesnsei has told me American kenpo is a Martial Art created by Ed Parker, the american kenpo suits you like a taylored suit not as the other MA, american kenpo is movement economy and all that things.

What I see, Kenpo is a stricking martial art that uses multiple shots or strikes in a rapid combination to beat the bad guys, american kenpo is like a blitz of hands,elbows,forearms,kicks,knees and in some cases joint locks and trows but mainly is a striking martial art. The american kenpo uses linear and circular movements.

As you may know I know only the basic concepts of American kenpo.

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

well, there are certainly many systems that use the term kenpo, and they are not all the same. SOme of them are closely related and splintered from Ed Parker, or from his teacher, William Chow. Other arts, like Shorinji Kempo are completely different and have no connection to Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow.

Be careful about the tayloring bit, making the art "fit" you. I think a lot of people grab ahold of that concept far too soon, and they do themselves a disservice. They use it to justify doing things however they want before they have a good understanding of it, and often end up simply doing it poorly. A lot of these people are now teachers, and are teaching their own students poor habits because of it.

Good martial arts need to be done correctly. The concept of tayloring should happen far down the road, once you are very solid in what you are doing and you understand it thoroughly. This is not something for a beginner to do, to just "do it my way".

Different people studied with Mr. Parker at different times, and that is reflected in how they do their kenpo. Mr. Parker was constantly changing things, so his students learned what he was doing when they studied with him. This is reflected in the different lineages that exist today, that trace back to Mr. Parker.

There is simply no standard "American Kenpo". There are only lineages thru different people who studied under Mr. Parker. Some of these lineages are similar to each other, some are quite different. SOme of these people have made significant changes of their own. In my opinion, the term American Kenpo should not even be used, because there really is no unity from one linage to the other.

So exactly what is "American Kenpo"? It really depends on who you are studying with, and the term itself probably shouldn't even be used.

Sorry I can't give you a clean answer. I don't believe there is one.

 

[Doc]

well, there are certainly many systems that use the term kenpo, and they are not all the same. SOme of them are closely related and splintered from Ed Parker, or from his teacher, William Chow. Other arts, like Shorinji Kempo are completely different and have no connection to Mr. Parker or Mr. Chow.

Be careful about the tayloring bit, making the art "fit" you. I think a lot of people grab ahold of that concept far too soon, and they do themselves a disservice. They use it to justify doing things however they want before they have a good understanding of it, and often end up simply doing it poorly. A lot of these people are now teachers, and are teaching their own students poor habits because of it.

Good martial arts need to be done correctly. The concept of tayloring should happen far down the road, once you are very solid in what you are doing and you understand it thoroughly. This is not something for a beginner to do, to just "do it my way".

Different people studied with Mr. Parker at different times, and that is reflected in how they do their kenpo. Mr. Parker was constantly changing things, so his students learned what he was doing when they studied with him. This is reflected in the different lineages that exist today, that trace back to Mr. Parker.

There is simply no standard "American Kenpo". There are only lineages thru different people who studied under Mr. Parker. Some of these lineages are similar to each other, some are quite different. SOme of these people have made significant changes of their own. In my opinion, the term American Kenpo should not even be used, because there really is no unity from one linage to the other.

So exactly what is "American Kenpo"? It really depends on who you are studying with, and the term itself probably shouldn't even be used.

Sorry I can't give you a clean answer. I don't believe there is one.

Dam you're good Mike. I would only add to support your post, "Mr. Parker never officially sanctioned the term "American Kenpo." He did promote his very public "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate," but "American Kenpo" was a different project he never went public with, and the term "EPAK" was coined after his death. You're right, the term "American Kenpo" should not even be used, because few no what it is, and as an actual art was never codified by Mr. Parker.

 

[Manny]

Thank you guys, so I am studiying Kenpo Karate from Ed parker, I should erase the term American Kenpo.

About the tailoring you may be right, however some times it happens that I do the tcehs in a diferent way (not too diferent I must say) from the other guys cause my previus exposure to other MA for long time (TKD).

Yes I know I need to empty my cup but this is not an easy task, I know over time I will do it, Kenpo Karate is amaizing.

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

Thank you guys, so I am studiying Kenpo Karate from Ed parker, I should erase the term American Kenpo.

Hi Manny,

again, you've got to look at your lineage all the way back to Mr. Parker. Who was your teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher, who studied under Mr. Parker? And did any of those folks study something else that influences how and what they teach as well?

I study kenpo in the Tracy lineage. This is also "Ed Parker" kenpo, since Al and Jim Tracy were students of Mr. Parker in the 1950s and 1960s. But they split off to do their own thing, and had other influences along the way that affects our system now.

What we do is not the same as lineage under Larry Tatum or Chuck Sullivan, or Frank Trejo, or our own Doc here in the forums, all who are people who studied under Mr. Parker.

This could all be called "Ed Parker Kenpo", but they are not simply the same.

Hope this makes sense to you.

About the tailoring you may be right, however some times it happens that I do the tcehs in a diferent way (not too diferent I must say) from the other guys cause my previus exposure to other MA for long time (TKD).

I don't know if what you are describing is actually tayloring.

Here's the thing: you learn your Self Defense techniques in a certain prescribed manner. They include certain defensive maneuvers and blocks or deflections, and counter attacks and whatnot. This gives you a basis from which to practice the concept of the technique and how to defend against that particular attack.

But if you ever needed to use the technique, things don't always go according to plan. You probably would never get the full and complete and exact technique to work, just like you practice it. You might only get a part of it to work, and you might need to change it and improvise on the spot, because combat is not predictable. You would need to respond to what is actually happening, even if it doesn't match the SD technique you thought you might do.

But I do not believe this would be considered Tayloring. This would simply be responding to an unpredictable situation, and everyone who defends himself needs to be able to do this.

I think that Tayloring probably refers more to changing the basics and the foundation of the art, to accomodate your personal build or a handicap or injury that you might have. If you have a handicap, you might not be able to do certain things. So those things might be eliminated or altered to something that you can do, that still makes sense. Or you might need to change the way you deliver a certain type of kick, for example, if you have an old leg injury that doesn't allow you to kick in the normal way.

But this is all basics and foundation stuff. This is what the entire system is built upon. If the foundation is weak, all the rest will also be weak. This is the stuff that you need to be most careful about changing. You don't want to change how you do your stances, for example, simply because you find them difficult. Instead, you practice those stances until they become natural and strong for you when you do them correctly. You need to develop your blocks so they are strong, and your strikes so they have authority. You need to do those the right way, and not change them because you are simply lazy, or you don't understand how to do them well yet but you only THINK that you do. Those are the things that you need to keep working on until they are right and strong. You don't change them because you just want to, or you think you know better. Very few people actually do know better. Most people who think they do, actually do not.

But if you are defending yourself and you are doing a technique that calls for a punch to the nose, and you decide to throw a palm strike to the nose instead, I think that is OK, and is not Tayloring.

Does this make sense?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Please define with your own words what is American kenpo or American Kenpo Karate?

Manny

Ways of the fist with parameters defined by Ed Parker.
Sean

 

[Doc]

Hi Manny,

again, you've got to look at your lineage all the way back to Mr. Parker. Who was your teacher's teacher's teacher's teacher, who studied under Mr. Parker? And did any of those folks study something else that influences how and what they teach as well?

I study kenpo in the Tracy lineage. This is also "Ed Parker" kenpo, since Al and Jim Tracy were students of Mr. Parker in the 1950s and 1960s. But they split off to do their own thing, and had other influences along the way that affects our system now.

What we do is not the same as lineage under Larry Tatum or Chuck Sullivan, or Frank Trejo, or our own Doc here in the forums, all who are people who studied under Mr. Parker.

This could all be called "Ed Parker Kenpo", but they are not simply the same.

Hope this makes sense to you.



I don't know if what you are describing is actually tayloring.

Here's the thing: you learn your Self Defense techniques in a certain prescribed manner. They include certain defensive maneuvers and blocks or deflections, and counter attacks and whatnot. This gives you a basis from which to practice the concept of the technique and how to defend against that particular attack.

But if you ever needed to use the technique, things don't always go according to plan. You probably would never get the full and complete and exact technique to work, just like you practice it. You might only get a part of it to work, and you might need to change it and improvise on the spot, because combat is not predictable. You would need to respond to what is actually happening, even if it doesn't match the SD technique you thought you might do.

But I do not believe this would be considered Tayloring. This would simply be responding to an unpredictable situation, and everyone who defends himself needs to be able to do this.

I think that Tayloring probably refers more to changing the basics and the foundation of the art, to accomodate your personal build or a handicap or injury that you might have. If you have a handicap, you might not be able to do certain things. So those things might be eliminated or altered to something that you can do, that still makes sense. Or you might need to change the way you deliver a certain type of kick, for example, if you have an old leg injury that doesn't allow you to kick in the normal way.

But this is all basics and foundation stuff. This is what the entire system is built upon. If the foundation is weak, all the rest will also be weak. This is the stuff that you need to be most careful about changing. You don't want to change how you do your stances, for example, simply because you find them difficult. Instead, you practice those stances until they become natural and strong for you when you do them correctly. You need to develop your blocks so they are strong, and your strikes so they have authority. You need to do those the right way, and not change them because you are simply lazy, or you don't understand how to do them well yet but you only THINK that you do. Those are the things that you need to keep working on until they are right and strong. You don't change them because you just want to, or you think you know better. Very few people actually do know better. Most people who think they do, actually do not.

But if you are defending yourself and you are doing a technique that calls for a punch to the nose, and you decide to throw a palm strike to the nose instead, I think that is OK, and is not Tayloring.

Does this make sense?

I don't know about anybody else, but it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Doc]

Thank you guys, so I am studiying Kenpo Karate from Ed parker, I should erase the term American Kenpo.

About the tailoring you may be right, however some times it happens that I do the tcehs in a diferent way (not too diferent I must say) from the other guys cause my previus exposure to other MA for long time (TKD).

Yes I know I need to empty my cup but this is not an easy task, I know over time I will do it, Kenpo Karate is amaizing.

Manny

In addition, when Mr. Parker went commercial, he knew he needed to "market" what he was selling. Commercially, no one knew what "kenpo" was. People would come into the old school in Pasadena before they put up the big "Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate" sign thinking it was a Mexican Restaurant. The marketing word was "Karate," and the brand was Ed Parker. The public was familiar with "Karate" and "Judo" as a Japanese fighting disciplines after World War Two. Even "Jiujitsu" when sold, was marketed as "Combat Judo" because "jiujitsu" was not familiar, and all practitioners were called "players" befitting their sport and competition perspective.

This was the market Mr. Parker had to crack. "American Kenpo" was what he was hoping to create as he Americanized the "Chinese Kenpo" he had been learning from Chinese and Samoan Masters. Although he privately continued to work on his "American Kenpo," the business of "Kenpo Karate" took off and dominated most of his time, and what work he did on "American Kenpo" was never formally codified. Mr. Parker held the term "American Kenpo" in reserve and refused to brand it with his name because he wanted it to be an American Art that all might embrace regardless of their background.

You can find "hints" of his "American Kenpo" in his Infinite Insights Series, as you notice it is written to cover a broad spectrum of ideas, some of which actually contradict each other. He was attempting to set the stage, in my opinion, to ultimately bring forth his American Kenpo, but a premonition of his own death, cut it short causing him to focus everything on the Infinite Insight Books, while touching on American Kenpo only privately in haste before he ultimately passed away.

Al and Jim Tracy had a tremendous impact on Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate because they were the originators of the "business" of selling the art, and Mr. Parker learned a lot as they grew, and it helped him to determine what he did and did not want to do, as he tracked their success. So although they were in his lineage, they had their own philosophical approach and you see only hints of Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate in their lineage. Further Al as a business man, would seek out other masters and pay them to come in to train and teach, to push what was now his art into other areas and perspectives. Thus you see a Joe Lewis influence, via Bruce Lee as well. All of this depending upon what region you were in, and AL's own desire to teach certain people, just like any other master.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Thank you guys, so I am studiying Kenpo Karate from Ed parker, I should erase the term American Kenpo.

About the tailoring you may be right, however some times it happens that I do the tcehs in a diferent way (not too diferent I must say) from the other guys cause my previus exposure to other MA for long time (TKD).

Yes I know I need to empty my cup but this is not an easy task, I know over time I will do it, Kenpo Karate is amaizing.

Manny

I'm not sure ersing the term American Kenpo is a good idea. What is your replacement term?
Sean

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not sure ersing the term American Kenpo is a good idea. What is your replacement term?
Sean

In my opinion, it's best to identify the lineage. For me, it's Tracy lineage kenpo. For others, it could be Planas lineage, or Tatum lineage, or Trejo lineage, etc.

 

[Manny]

Thank you all guys. My Kenpo Lineaje is this and I hope it works for you. My sensei lerned Kenpo Karate from Master Hernan Carrasco (the intoductor of Ed Parker Kenpo karate in Mexico) Hernan Carrasco studied Kenpo Karate from Ed Parker's students Frank Trejo in the beginin and then Skip Hanckok. Hernan Carrasco is under the Kenpo 2000 humbrella of master Skip Hanckok, however my sensei is now part of IKKA Mexico.

Manny

 

[Flying Crane]

Thank you all guys. My Kenpo Lineaje is this and I hope it works for you. My sensei lerned Kenpo Karate from Master Hernan Carrasco (the intoductor of Ed Parker Kenpo karate in Mexico) Hernan Carrasco studied Kenpo Karate from Ed Parker's students Frank Trejo in the beginin and then Skip Hanckok. Hernan Carrasco is under the Kenpo 2000 humbrella of master Skip Hanckok, however my sensei is now part of IKKA Mexico.

Manny

OK, so I'd say that in your case, how you might define kenpo would be established by IKKA Mexico, and perhaps Kenpo 2000, since those are probably the strongest influences. But there will still be influences on the personal level as well. How I might define it might have little in common with how you or your instructor might define it.

In an earlier post, you made reference to the blitz hands and whatnot. Based on what I've seen on youtube, I'd say that is true for a lot of people. They tend to put a heavy focus on the lightning fast hands, multiple followup shots and whatnot. Personally, that is not my focus, nor my instructor's. I don't think it's the best way go about training, and the results of that type of training are not what I'm interested in. But it's definitely prevalent on Youtube, indicating that at least for some people, that's an important component.

Not much agreement once again, see what I mean?

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Funny you should ask that question...

Lately, I've been asking myself that as well.

I'm just a Purple Belt in the 5.0 Method, so my observations may be completely off the mark, but what the heck, here goes anyway, everyone:

I think most perceive AK to be what Manny described it as - a method of H2H fighting that emphasizes fast hands and continuous forward-momentum-driven counters.

That's probably because to most of us, the SD techniques represent the heart and soul of AK.

However, for me, there remains a big problem. When we execute our attacks and scripted counters during compliant drills like technique line training, it looks and feels like AK should. But then when we do sparring, and the script is thrown out, it often ceases to resemble AK in any shape or form, but apparently degenerates into a kickboxing match. It's almost schizophrenic and it drives me nuts!

I'm not fully cognizant of the many streams of AK; I'm sure some of them have taken steps to solve this. I know Doc's meticulous, science-driven approach produces great results and I hear that the AKKI Method is pretty sound as well.

To me, there's a fundamental missing link between SD techs and freestyle fighting. I believe it's the training methodology that's to blame, and as Doc has stated: the inability of many instructors to get 'it' and then transfer 'it' to their students effectively, 'it' of course, being the ability to teach the essence of the system. So in order to improve my personal Kenpo, I've begun to take the following steps, baby steps no doubt, but ya gotta start somewhere:

1) Break each tech sequence down into bite-sized chunks. Instead of beng too eager to practice the whole of Five Swords, why not practice the entry and maybe the first two counters. Do the same with Shielding Hammer: why not perfect the outward block and lunge step with the vertical fist before progressing any further?

2) Drill the bite-sized chunks, expecially the entry move. If we can't even pull off the entry under pressure, how the heck will we execute six or seven chained movements against someone who's fighting back in real time. Imho, this is also more realistic as it forces one to consider that after you strike back, the enemy is unlikely to stand still as a statue, but will strive to evade and regain positional dominance. Keep it short and keep moving... That's my new philosophy.

Many other things I've been trying but I haven't got time now, and besides, my mind's still a jumble of thoughts.

Might add more later if I get the chance.

Hope it makes sense.

 

[Manny]

Funny you should ask that question...

Lately, I've been asking myself that as well.

I'm just a Purple Belt in the 5.0 Method, so my observations may be completely off the mark, but what the heck, here goes anyway, everyone:

I think most perceive AK to be what Manny described it as - a method of H2H fighting that emphasizes fast hands and continuous forward-momentum-driven counters.

That's probably because to most of us, the SD techniques represent the heart and soul of AK.

However, for me, there remains a big problem. When we execute our attacks and scripted counters during compliant drills like technique line training, it looks and feels like AK should. But then when we do sparring, and the script is thrown out, it often ceases to resemble AK in any shape or form, but apparently degenerates into a kickboxing match. It's almost schizophrenic and it drives me nuts!

I'm not fully cognizant of the many streams of AK; I'm sure some of them have taken steps to solve this. I know Doc's meticulous, science-driven approach produces great results and I hear that the AKKI Method is pretty sound as well.

To me, there's a fundamental missing link between SD techs and freestyle fighting. I believe it's the training methodology that's to blame, and as Doc has stated: the inability of many instructors to get 'it' and then transfer 'it' to their students effectively, 'it' of course, being the ability to teach the essence of the system. So in order to improve my personal Kenpo, I've begun to take the following steps, baby steps no doubt, but ya gotta start somewhere:

1) Break each tech sequence down into bite-sized chunks. Instead of beng too eager to practice the whole of Five Swords, why not practice the entry and maybe the first two counters. Do the same with Shielding Hammer: why not perfect the outward block and lunge step with the vertical fist before progressing any further?

2) Drill the bite-sized chunks, expecially the entry move. If we can't even pull off the entry under pressure, how the heck will we execute six or seven chained movements against someone who's fighting back in real time. Imho, this is also more realistic as it forces one to consider that after you strike back, the enemy is unlikely to stand still as a statue, but will strive to evade and regain positional dominance. Keep it short and keep moving... That's my new philosophy.

Many other things I've been trying but I haven't got time now, and besides, my mind's still a jumble of thoughts.

Might add more later if I get the chance.

Hope it makes sense.

I agree with you, in my dojo is the same, the kenpo techs are pure kenpo techs and the sparring is someting like kicks boxing, I think the kenpo sparring should be the same format as the self defense techs, yestarday I saw some old movies in you tube of the kenpo of the 60's and in the sparring I saw it was so diferent from the sparring we do today, in the old days (at least for the movies I saw) there are a lot of manuvers (defense/ofense) where each fighter wants to desastibilize the other and delivering the blow. And as you do I will prefer break down the techs in pieces top comprehend better, I would rather go for steps in the proces of learning each technike in Kenpo thatn send a boley of hands without acuracy and technike.

Manny