diferences

[Xinglu]

well, I really haven't seen any kara-ho, so I guess it might be realized in that system, I just don't know anything about it. But I've seen low stances and powerful movements in any of a number of Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan systems, so I don't find that alone to be convincing of a hung ga connection.

But you mention the possibility that Parker didn't teach some of Chow's original techniques, and that brings a couple more questions to mind: Does Kara-ho utilize a body of self defense techniques similar to what Tracys and other later lineages of Parker-derived kenpo use? If so, do you believe these techniques come from Hung Ga? I've never heard of this kind of thing in Hung Ga. It's been my impression that hung ga, like many of the Chinese arts, is based on the practice and analyzation of forms for its fighting applications. Typically most Chinese systems do not maintain a separate body of self defense combinations, in the same way that many Kenpo systems do.

It seems that if there is a hung ga connection, the most obvious way it would have manifest would be in the maintennance of the hung ga forms within the kenpo system, and that simply has not happened. Otherwise, if kenpo has kept a certain distinguishable way of moving and generating power that was consistent with the hung ga methods, that could be another thing. But typically these characteristics are developed thru the practice of the body of forms that make up the system's curriculum. Without the practice of the forms, which are designed to develop the distinguishable characteristics that define the method, it is pretty difficult to coherently and comprehensively and thoroughly develop the methods and characteristics. Certainly some of these things can be developed independently of the forms, in the format of practicing basic technques. But the practice of the forms brings these elements together in a more complete way. I've just never witnessed anything in kenpo that was ever linked to a specific hung ga method.

I guess I'm still looking for evidence of Hung Ga in kenpo. I've just never seen anything convincing, but I acknowledge that I know nothing of kara-ho, and certainly don't know everything about all things kenpo.

Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques. In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.

You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs. Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching. He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.

I'm pretty sure that GM Kuoha is responsible for the creation of all the forms that currently exist in the system because of how much he has introduced so the forms needed to reflect that. He also created an amazing amount of preset techniques that utilize these as well. However, he has kept a series of techniques that Chow created to pay tribute and IMHO teach students where Kara-Ho started so they can see where it is going. Off topic, I have a feeling that his daughter Ka'imi will add some interesting things into the mix too.

As has been brought up, AK utilizes "splashing hands" and derives a lot of power from there and from the Choy Li Fut principles in circular and soft power. I feel that EPAK has most likely abandoned any hongjia roots in favor of other methods that appealed more to Parker.

 

[Xinglu]

What crane methods do you see in kara-ho, or in any other kenpo method that you are familiar with?

Quite frankly, I see a lot, I also unfortunately see a lot not done well too, but that is from studying Crane with my Choy Li Fut training. I have never seen the underlying principles of the five animals taught in any kenpo class, just the movements, and this is why I think some of the (發&#21185 is lost. While it is unfortunate IMHO it really doesn't matter a whole lot either because kenpo is not a 5 animal system. For example, Kara-Ho now utilizes the Aikido (合气&#36947 principles of qi ( pronounced ki in japanese) to derive power in strikes. EPAK utilizes "splashing hands" and CLF principles for "curving strikes"

I do practice the Tibetan method, and within Tracys I have noticed certain techniques that are very similar to the Tibetan crane methods, which also influenced Hung Ga. They have been developed a bit differently within kenpo, but there is a strong similarity with some (but not all) of the punching methods and how some of the combinations have been put together. But they've gone in a bit of a different direction within kenpo, and you've gotta have a real knowledge of Tibetan crane in order to be able to even recognize them as crane techniques. How this material entered the system is somethin that I do not know. I have no idea if someone had actually studied Tibetan white crane and deliberately brought these methods in, or if they developed within kenpo independently or thru other influences.

Ultimately I think that it is not readily apparent in everything Kara-ho does, not anymore. But there are moments where I step back and go, "Wow! I see it there!" But that is what happens when you blend so many things together. When Kara-Ho used to be Kenpo-Jujitsu and Hongjia Blended, it is now blended with Aikido, Korean Karate, and probably a lot more. That means a lot of the Hongjai gets modified or thrown out to stay in line with the newer principles being introduced. As I said, I think the Crane came to Kenpo through the Hongjai, but there is also a legend out there saying that White Crane is the major influence for Karate... so who knows, If you believe that it could have entered Kenpo through Mitose or one of his teachers.

 

[Xinglu]

Something y'all sorta blew past, so I'll mention it again cuz it bears repeating...the influences on Parker from Wongs system, through Lefiti. Mok, Mok ga, Mok Gar, whatever.

Agreed, however, I don't believe that the 5 animal influences came from here.

The Crane influence is there more than appears; the paths of travel, loading weapons for impact while the involved appendage moves through the arc of the path, long-hand movements from the shoulder with smaller circles described at the hands and wrists in complementary or counter-orbits...these should all be present in good AK, but of aren't -- too far removed from the tree. Movement from the core, involving the stance changes and torso tensions -- should also be there, but just get dropped.

Agreed, like I said above, I see a lot of crane in Kenpo, I just unfortunately see a lot of poorly executed crane. I think a lot of this is due to the underlying principles not being taught for the 5 animals. Unfortunate, but only a small weakness that is easily overcome by learning the underlying principles and applying them to your kenpo!

As for Twin Fists assertion that Mr. Parker took the jujutsu out of kenpo, I whole-heartedly disagree. Danzan-Ryu influences and Judo influences abound in the system. A good instructor will isolate these movements & waza from within a self-defense technique, and train them in isolation...the sukuinage in Locking Horns or Dance of Death; the Osoto-guruma hiding in Tripping Arrow, the katate-dori ich in Reversing Circles, etc. If they have not been accentuated, it's cuz the teacher doesn't know about them, or has never had them isolated for him. Mr. Parker was a -dan rank in judo under a judo legend in the islands, seperate from his kenpo training, and maintained close ties with DZR seniors in Hawaii and here on the mainland. Almost every technique in the 32 system up through green/brown has a jujutsu waza embedded in it. They also have opportunities to explore the space using CLF movement patterns, if one gets past the incliniation to assume Mr. Parker was pushing a linear art.

Agreed, I must have missed that... Well put, it is still there and extremely effective IMHO.

Finally, Mr. Parker called his kenpo "Chinese kenpo" for a while, as well, particularly while woking in the influences fom Woo, Wong, and Lefiti. Many who left his organization in the early years still refer to it by same.

Yup, in fact his first book pays homage to that too! And I think if it wasn't for the politics, it would still be called that!

 

[Xinglu]

...but I acknowledge that I know nothing of kara-ho, and certainly don't know everything about all things kenpo.

LOL, I don't think anyone alive knows ALL things kenpo

I know virtually nothing about Tracy Kenpo other than Will apparently did some trash talking a couple decades ago that has gotten a lot of flack. I know nothing about what they have blended or taken away or added back in.

My knowledge comes from direct experience. I have trained in three types of Kenpo, outside of those three systems, I'm not real qualified to speculate about what their kenpo consists of.

 

[Xinglu]

Here is a Kenpoka actually preforming a kenpo version of the Tiger-Crane set that I linked to above. It is pure hongjia and testifies to kenpo having been influenced by hongjai.

This guy is pretty good and you can see how when done at a faster pace you can see where kenpo has been influenced.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Agreed, like I said above, I see a lot of crane in Kenpo, I just unfortunately see a lot of poorly executed crane. I think a lot of this is due to the underlying principles not being taught for the 5 animals. Unfortunate, but only a small weakness that is easily overcome by learning the underlying principles and applying them to your kenpo!

I must, painfully, wholeheartedly, agree. I actually bothered to go out to the "mother arts" of kenpo, as well as some "sister" arts, to learn the isolated influences. It was principally the gungfu that brought my strikes to life in kenpo, and the isolated Japanese jujutsu that brought the contol ranges to life. The techniques are still kenpo, but with a different flavor, extending from a different understanding of the roots.

As for CLF and it's influences on kenpo, there are a couple videos I like to link to for demonstrating how kenpo is improved on by bringing in the influences of motion dynamics from the Chinese systems. One for the way our techniques should honor circular movement generated from the core, and the other to demonstrate how forms such as Long 4 should be influenced by CLF to broaden force multipliers in application.

For techniques, as combinations of basics, benefitting from dynamic, but softer & larger, circles:

Unfortunately, kenpo shortens the circles so far, they lose the destructive power found in working the path of the arc from the core, choosing to work it merely from the elbow. Footage of Mr. Parker demonstrates his own preference for working the larger circles, with utilization of his waist and legs; somehow, though, even many of his own long-term direct students lost it, or simply failed to notice.

As for forms, I'm still waiting to see someone demonstrate Long Form 4 with this level of circular physicality and accentuation, enunciating their movement, instead of mumbling it:

I cannot watch this form without thinking to myself in glaring, bold, capital letters, "This is how Long 4 ought to be done".

Heck, may go work on it myself.

D.

 

[Twin Fist]

Dave,
the JJ elements of the Parker techniques were never stressed or isolated in my training in it, but then, my training was under Steve Spry, so.........you get the idea.

I will have to go back and look at that.

As for Twin Fists assertion that Mr. Parker took the jujutsu out of kenpo, I whole-heartedly disagree.

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Dave,
the JJ elements of the Parker techniques were never stressed or isolated in my training in it, but then, my training was under Steve Spry, so.........you get the idea.

I will have to go back and look at that.

Orange County kenpo was a strange gig back in the day. There were many cool resources, some of which knew more than they shared, some of which somehow gre up in a rich field of information but never accessed it or passed it on. I know Spry hung with some guys like Sol, which could have been used as an intro point to get with other limalama guys from different backgrounds, who still lived and taught in their yards within 1/2 hour drives.

Some of the kajukenbo guys that merged into limalama had heavy DZR influences (lots of Okazaki injection into the whole Hawaiian martial arts clans scene), and they were good for seeing the isolations. Tino's people were good for seeing what some of the early Spalshing Hands+Kenpo infusions looked like.

Spry was: Parker > Perry/White > Brock > Spry. Perry and Dimmick were the two main Parker kenpo influences in OC, both of whom bailed early cuzza money and politics. But both of whoms schools used to teach the old isolations methodology -- you know: Learning how to put someone in a hammerlock restraining hold in the same lesson you next learn Locked Wind or Flight to Freedom in. It just all got dropped somewhere. Even Mr. Parker stopped covering it. More than one old dawg has said it was on account of business building...that you can't really have a kids class torquing each others' joints and slamming each other into the mat with throws and take-downs. I guess it makes sense: A Sam-Pai black belt I trained with for years just got shoulder surgery to fix damage from a judo session we had back in the early 90's.

The other old kenpo influences in OC were through Dave German and his TAI schools. He actually shaped his cirriculum around specifically training the grappling moves in isolation, then re-injecting them back into the techniques (i.e., do 100 osoto throws, THEN go back to Tripping Arrow and see how your take-down launches the guy).

And you know all those rea bear-hug techniques that end with knocking the guy over your leg after you circle it around behind him? Straight off the DZR technique list from Okazaki (they call them "boards").

James Hawkins did a cool thing -- I'll look for it to see if I can find it and e/m it to you. Went through the kenpo techs, and identified by name the jujittie maneuvers embedded in them. Great training tool; used it for modifying the basics sections of my requirement cards -- always had a "controls, throws,and take-downs" section that was more random than applicable to the cirriculum ("Gee...they should know how to do an osoto, hip, and shoulder throw by this level; think I'll stick it in there as a side-bar"), so his list allowed me to make the category match the techniques for that belt.

Perry knew a lot of this stuff, too. He just stopped caring, because students didn't. But if you got him talking about it, he could go on for hours...including the Japanese names. That always surprised the hell out of me; slick American used car sales kenpo guy spewing out the Japanese names for Parker kenpo basics, and judo chokes, throws, manipulations and control positions.

I gotta get to the gym to get my cardio up for the end of September. I'll see if I can find James' list when I get back.

Be good,

D.

PS -- I do agree it was over-cerebralized, but have to admit -- as a bit of a cerebral dork, it's some of what appeals to me.

 

[Flying Crane]

Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques. In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.

You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs. Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching. He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.

I'm pretty sure that GM Kuoha is responsible for the creation of all the forms that currently exist in the system because of how much he has introduced so the forms needed to reflect that. He also created an amazing amount of preset techniques that utilize these as well. However, he has kept a series of techniques that Chow created to pay tribute and IMHO teach students where Kara-Ho started so they can see where it is going. Off topic, I have a feeling that his daughter Ka'imi will add some interesting things into the mix too.

As has been brought up, AK utilizes "splashing hands" and derives a lot of power from there and from the Choy Li Fut principles in circular and soft power. I feel that EPAK has most likely abandoned any hongjia roots in favor of other methods that appealed more to Parker.

I am familiar with Hung ga's tiger/crane form, I've learned a shortened version from my kung fu sifu, and as a Tracy kenpo guy I've also learned the adopted Tracy's version. It is that limited hung ga experience that has me questioning Chow's alleged hung ga background. I'm just not seeing technques and methods in kenpo, at least not in Tracy kenpo, that are reminiscient to hung ga (other than the adoption of that particular form), and it seems like if it was there, it ought to show up in Tracys. I believe Tracy's version of Tiger/Crane came from Jimmy Woo, so again, while there was at least that much influence, it didn't come from Chow. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, I'm just saying that from my very limited knowledge of hung ga, I'm not seeing it in the lineage of kenpo that I'm in. Of course that says nothing about what may be going on in Kara-ho, and I acknowledge that.

It is possible that Parker dropped the hung ga methods in favor of others, as you suggest. However, the monkey-wrench in that suggestion is that Tracy's doesn't show much of anything that I recognize as hung ga. Since Tracys tried to keep things closer to what Mr. Parker taught them in the 1950s to early 1960s, it seems that this would be closer to what Mr. Chow had taught Parker. If Chow had hung ga as a family art from his father, it seems that he would have made a point of teaching that to his students. Hence, it seems reasonable that we would see it in Tracys kenpo. If it is true that Chow was a hung ga man, then I think the only possibility is that Chow chose to drop it in favor of other methods, and never taught it, at least not to Parker. I wonder what would have convinced Chow to drop it, especially if it was something he learned from his father? I dunno.

interesting discussion, interesting things to think about.

 

[Flying Crane]

Quite frankly, I see a lot, I also unfortunately see a lot not done well too, but that is from studying Crane with my Choy Li Fut training.

what are the crane techniques like, in CLF?

But there are moments where I step back and go, "Wow! I see it there!"

yes, I've had very similar "lightbulb" moments with kenpo and Tibetan crane methods.

As I said, I think the Crane came to Kenpo through the Hongjai, but there is also a legend out there saying that White Crane is the major influence for Karate... so who knows, If you believe that it could have entered Kenpo through Mitose or one of his teachers.

There is a very very important point here, however. The White Crane that was so influential in the development of the Okinawan karate systems was Fukien White Crane, which is not the same as Tibetan White Crane, which is what I study. The two systems are completely different from each other. They have a different history and development, and their techniques, strategies, and methodologies are completely different. They look nothing like each other. Tibetan Crane influenced Hung Ga. I do not know if Fukien crane also influenced hung ga.

Tibetan crane is a very long-arm system, utilizing a very extreme full-body pivot to drive our strikes thru. You would note some level of superficial similarity with CLF. Fukien crane looks something like wing chun, in a way. Sanchin kata comes directly from Fukien crane, and Fukien Cranes' version is absolutely identifiable as the same form. Tibetan crane has nothing even remotely similar to something like Sanchin.

It's interesting to note that completely different arts can have a similar name. It seems that different groups of people focused on different aspects of what is "Crane", and followed different paths. The same animal inspired the development of two or even more, very different systems. This is why I ask what the crane is like in CLF, and while I'm at it, I guess I ought to ask what is the crane like that you see in Kara-ho?

 

[marlon]

Here is a Kenpoka actually preforming a kenpo version of the Tiger-Crane set that I linked to above. It is pure hongjia and testifies to kenpo having been influenced by hongjai.

This guy is pretty good and you can see how when done at a faster pace you can see where kenpo has been influenced.

it does not really look like the fu hook song yi that i have seen from the hung gar system (except at around 1m20sec to 1m28 secs) But i will ask a friend.

Marlon

 

[Flying Crane]

it does not really look like the fu hook song yi that i have seen from the hung gar system (except at around 1m20sec to 1m28 secs) But i will ask a friend.

Marlon

It has been thoroughly kenpo-ised. I do not know if that was deliberate, or if it was an inevitable result of kenpo guys doing the form that they learned from Jimmy Woo, but without having developed the full hung ga base and theory upon which the form should sit. In essence, I believe the kenpo guys of the time learned it from Woo, but practiced it based on their understanding of kenpo, using kenpo theories and methods instead of hung ga theories and methods, to drive the form. But I agree, it has a very different character from the way a hung ga man would practice it.

 

[Xinglu]

CLF crane form
CLF 5 animal form This as you can see has a lot of crane in it.

So after what you have said, I'm assuming that CLF is more influenced by Tibetan Crane - which makes sense. If hongjia was influenced by it, they claim to have gotten the crane from the Shaolin, and CLF claim the 5 animals also come from the Shaolin.... sooo, there you go

With Chow, he obviously did abandon hongjia in favor of kenpo (otherwise I think he never would have bothered much with Mitosie and would have just taught hongjia), however it is still readily apparent in his approach to techniques. And IMHO is still apparent in some of the kara-ho techniques. They have a penchant to grab soft tissue and rip, this does not come from Aikido, Karate, or the Jujitsu elements. Certainly, not from the Korean influence.... I don't know I have seen a lot of Hingjia forms and seen demos of their practical applications, the similarities and cruelty in the destruction caused is uncanny. And from what I've heard from GM Kuoha during "Dojo story times" is that Chow was an incredibly cruel and destructive fighter. I just call that smart fighting, but hey to each their own! The Hongjia connection just makes sense to me. Unfortunately there is no way to know for absolute certain. There are conflicting stories, but I view GM Kuoha as an honest man with no reason to lie about it, and he knew Chow quite well. And considering he inherited the system from Chow, I have a hard time believing he'd perpetuate a myth that had no grounding in reality.

Who knows, I have never heard that Chow was a master of hongjia, just that his father taught it to him growing up. Perhaps his hongjia was not very advanced when he left to train in Kenpo-Jujitsu. It is something interesting to think about that is for sure.

 

[clfsean]

CLF crane form

I know that Crane set. The only thing that makes it Crane is the use of Hok Ding & Hok Jui in places where a fist would go in a lot of places.

CLF 5 animal form This as you can see has a lot of crane in it.

I practice this version of Ng Ying. There's really not a lot of crane in it.

So after what you have said, I'm assuming that CLF is more influenced by Tibetan Crane - which makes sense. If hongjia was influenced by it, they claim to have gotten the crane from the Shaolin, and CLF claim the 5 animals also come from the Shaolin.... sooo, there you go

CLF has a definite long arm influence that was probably brought about by the Lion's Roar & substyles brought to Southern China. CLF Ng Ying uses the Shaolin name because CLF is an amalgam of 3 Shaolin styles. But that's not where the 5 Animals come from in that set.

I'm getting this thread off topic though... enough from me.

 

[Xinglu]

It has been thoroughly kenpo-ised. I do not know if that was deliberate, or if it was an inevitable result of kenpo guys doing the form that they learned from Jimmy Woo, but without having developed the full hung ga base and theory upon which the form should sit.

...But I agree, it has a very different character from the way a hung ga man would practice it.

This was my understanding as well, that it is supposed to be a kenpo version of the hongjia form.

 

[Xinglu]

I practice this version of Ng Ying. There's really not a lot of crane in it.

The entire opening is almost completely crane.

Here are the movements: Crane flies into the sky, crane cools it's wings, crane stretches left claw, Crane stretches leg to the right, then to the left, then forward, lazy tiger stretches his leg back, crane leaps up and kicks behind, crane guards the cave, Crane guards his nest, Wild Tiger looks back, Crane opens his wings and kicks. From there it goes into the other five animals, but the entire opening is crane. I think it is a good example.

 

[clfsean]

The entire opening is almost completely crane.

Here are the movements: Crane flies into the sky, crane cools it's wings, crane stretches left claw, Crane stretches leg to the right, then to the left, then forward, lazy tiger stretches his leg back, crane leaps up and kicks behind, crane guards the cave, Crane guards his nest, Wild Tiger looks back, Crane opens his wings and kicks. From there it goes into the other five animals, but the entire opening is crane. I think it is a good example.

No... it's not. Those are the poetic names for the motions & techniques in lyric format. It doesn't necessitate usage or origin.

Do you practice this form?

 

[Xinglu]

No... it's not. Those are the poetic names for the motions & techniques in lyric format. It doesn't necessitate usage or origin.

Do you practice this form?

I do, and I was always taught that these are crane movements and postures.

For example Crane guards the cave is a heding (鹤&#39030 movement, Crane stands on one leg is can be combined with crane stretches his claw for a good defense against a kick with a counter attack.

Our crane form differs from the one I linked above, but I couldn't find any videos of it. Ours uses a lot of the Heyi (鹤&#32764, Hejing (鹤&#39048 and with spattering of Hezui (鹤&#22068. The form is fast and broken up with standing on one leg and doing slower movements while on one leg to strengthen them, Tons of standing on one leg and one leg squats... it's a great work out.

 

[clfsean]

I do, and I was always taught that these are crane movements and postures.

To each his own then. I learned & prefer the straight forward technique method for the set & all the others.

For example Crane guards the cave is a heding (鹤&#39030 movement, Crane stands on one leg is can be combined with crane stretches his claw for a good defense against a kick with a counter attack.

You mean Foi Sing Tek Dao?

Our crane form differs from the one I linked above, but I couldn't find any videos of it. Ours uses a lot of the Heyi (鹤&#32764, Hejing (鹤&#39048 and with spattering of Hezui (鹤&#22068. The form is fast and broken up with standing on one leg and doing slower movements while on one leg to strengthen them, Tons of standing on one leg and one leg squats... it's a great work out.

I've seen it & don't care for it personally. But that's just me.

We need to continue (?) this conversation on the CMA side & get it out of the kenpo folks thread.

 

[Xinglu]

We need to continue (?) this conversation on the CMA side & get it out of the kenpo folks thread.

You're right, we're way off topic now