diferences

[suicide]

Watch the Tiger-Crane form. This form reminds me a lot of the Chow techniques. In fact, I see many movements in there that found themselves into the techs.

You're absolutely right that most Chinese systems don't have preset defensive manuvers and use the forms to teach the techs. Chow never really taught preset techniques until later in his teaching. He extrapolated from the forms and taught mostly from them for SD techs.

I'm pretty sure that GM Kuoha is responsible for the creation of all the forms that currently exist in the system because of how much he has introduced so the forms needed to reflect that. He also created an amazing amount of preset techniques that utilize these as well. However, he has kept a series of techniques that Chow created to pay tribute and IMHO teach students where Kara-Ho started so they can see where it is going. Off topic, I have a feeling that his daughter Ka'imi will add some interesting things into the mix too.

As has been brought up, AK utilizes "splashing hands" and derives a lot of power from there and from the Choy Li Fut principles in circular and soft power. I feel that EPAK has most likely abandoned any hongjia roots in favor of other methods that appealed more to Parker.

its a buetiful form just watched it , but do forms got to be so LONG ? and of all the other people that have incorporated this into there system have they simplified or do they do it identical ?

 

[TenTigers]

I
So if Chow was really a hung ga man, why does none of the kenpo that has descended from him (at least as far as I have seen) look nothing like hung ga, and maintain essentially none of the hung ga curriculum with the one exception i've mentioned above?

Moi Fa Kuen (depending on the lineage) has several techniques that have kenpo flavor-or is it visa-versa?
No offense, but the fact that you are not a Hung-Ga practitioner is why you don't see the techniqes within Kenpo.

 

[Xinglu]

its a buetiful form just watched it , but do forms got to be so LONG ? and of all the other people that have incorporated this into there system have they simplified or do they do it identical ?

Traditionally there were no preset techniques, all the techniques were derived from the movements in the forms. This meant that you either had long forms, or a whole lot of forms to have an extensive martial art. It is not uncommon to find CMA that have hundreds of forms with some of them having over 200 movements.

Most systems when they incorporate things like this cannibalize the form and import movements that blend well with their current system or improve the way it works. In the case of the Tracy form, they seem to have "kenpoized" it but left the large majority of it intact. I would be greatly interested as to why they did that, I like it, but IMHO it does seem out of place looking at the rest of the forms...

 

[Xinglu]

Moi Fa Kuen (depending on the lineage) has several techniques that have kenpo flavor-or is it visa-versa?
No offense, but the fact that you are not a Hung-Ga practitioner is why you don't see the techniques within Kenpo.

There is also the distinct possibility that his instructors don't emphasize those movements or principles. For example, The instructor I learned Kara-ho from trained directly under Chow. So the influence might be stronger because of that - The Tracy's (please correct me if I'm wrong) are teaching parker's system pre what they call "commercialization" and pre-rift with Woo.

That means Parker had Changed things a lot and blended a lot in, They have also taught Kenpo according to their own interpretation. I don't know if he studied under the Tracy's or under someone who trained from them... but generationally he might be a lot further removed from Chow then say I am, thus what he is learned might not look as close to what Chow was doing as what I have seen.

Furthermore, I'm not a hongjia practitioner, but I do cross train with a buddy of mine who is - so perhaps that is why I see it more in Kenpo then others. I don't know.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
Differences... In a nutshell...

Ed Parker's Kenpo: Technique extensions, few Chinese forms, but many basics sets.

Tracy's Kenpo: More techniques, but no extensions, added Chinese based forms.

Between these two, seems like pretty much a wash to me. Sans, the politics and ego, of course. Perhaps truly a "Ford/Chevy" arguement?

I cannot comment on the other Kenpo based forms as I am not as familiar with them.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[dianhsuhe]

It is SIFU Dwight Love and no his Kung-Fu has not been added to Kara-Ho Kempo but Shihan Ka'imi has indeed trained with him for quite some time.

Xing-Lu, please be careful in your analysis of Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha's "intent" with Kara-Ho. You seem to have only a mild idea of the system.

Do not make guesses and publish them as fact-

Should I ask what rank you attained in Kara-Ho?

Sensei Jamey

 

[Xinglu]

It is SIFU Dwight Love and no his Kung-Fu has not been added to Kara-Ho Kempo but Shihan Ka'imi has indeed trained with him for quite some time.

It is only correct to refer to someone as Shifu/Sifu if they are your shifu/sifu, he is not, ergo I don't. He is an exceptionally talented man, and I respect him, but I also respect Chinese traditions and will never imply that I ever formally studied under him by calling him Shifu/Sifu. But, I do know the man and have spoken with him in depth on several occasions.

Furthermore, I never said it was his that had been blended. I said I suspected it. After all GM Kuoha did study gongfu, and he and Dwight (from Dwight's own mouth) "go back a long time." I also said, and this is logical rational: that Ka'imi having trained with Dwight when she adds to the art, I'm sure we will see some of that influence. You see that is my opinion, but it is based in sound reasoning. It is my opinion that all of the training we do affects how we move and do things. There is nothing unreasonable about speculating that when she inherits the art, she will do as her father before her has done and add to the art, improving things as she deems fit. To do so she will dig deep and draw from all her knowledge. For instances I know she has implemented some training changes already, at least according to the Kahananui family. Nani, I'm sure you know her (Shihan Ben's daughter), her brother's children are training up there and she has said that things are quite different from when we trained. I trust her. In fact, I took a group of Boy scouts up there to watch a class a few years ago so they could learn about MA, the training was different then I had remembered. More in the direction things where going when I left. So, those two things added together lead me to believe Nani, and leads me to believe that Ka'imi will leave her mark on Kara-Ho. And if she is to inherit the art, she should leave her mark!

Xing-Lu, please be careful in your analysis of Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha's "intent" with Kara-Ho.

Every time I have speculated about GM Kuoha's intent I have encouraged all to ask him about it. He is on here and can answer those questions. Never once have I implied to speak in an official capacity for him or the organization as a whole. I have been clear about that from the beginning, which means you have either misunderstood me in my posts or have not really read them. I have also encouraged people to also speak to GM Kouha about Chow and the questions they have regarding him.

You seem to have only a mild idea of the system.

I don't need my 5th dan to know the history of Kenpo or to know what I have heard directly from GM Kuoha, Ka'imi, or Shihan Kahananui. Is Sensei Al still around? He and I used to have long conversations about the influences of Kara-Ho. The most memorable to me was during the Wyoming trip in his Volvo. I know Sensei Dan left, what About Sensei Bill, tall, cop, really loved his Motorcycle...

Do not make guesses and publish them as fact-

No where have I published anything as a fact except the following: I trained in Kara-Ho, my instructor trained under Chow directly (as it was GM), and that GM referred to Hongjia during "dojo story time," you know the time after saturday classes where we would all sit and listen and ask questions about Kara-Ho, that he added Aikido elements (look no further then Ki princible which are to be applied to all strikes and kicks, Lead Ki techs, and Knife defense techiques, not to mention the Jo form) and the Korean kicks (Jumping spinning wheel. In fact, just look at the "line works", in particular number 5), having studied Tang Soo Do I easily recognize a korean style kick when I see one, and it is a fact that GM studied the Korean arts. He took a great weapon and blended it into Kenpo, nothing wrong with that.

Other than that it has all been opinion, and I have been clear about that, referring people to GM to get the official answer.

Should I ask what rank you attained in Kara-Ho?

Should you? Are you? At any rate I'm going to assume that was your request. I studied from age 7 to age 17 and earned my green belt and was preparing to test for my advanced green. I Stopped training shortly after he opened the commercial studio in El Cajon next to Kinkos (on E. Main and 2nd st.) for a vast multitude of reasons none of which are appropriate for a public forum. However, I would be more than willing to continue that discussion in PM with you.

 

[KenpoDave]

There are also Chinese sets in Tracys that did not come from Mr. Woo. As is true with many of the early kenpo people, the Tracys had other influences and teachers along the way as well. I think they basically took the approach that if you learn something new that you can bring into the system and make it better, then do so. But don't take something out of the system or you might risk dropping something that is worth while. I've heard the same sentiment expressed among some Shaolin proponents as well. Seems like some of the Longfist forms have versions taught in certain schools that are quite long compared to other schools teaching the same forms. I guess the leaders in some lineages kept adding things over several generations that other lineages did not, and their version of some of these forms is now a lot longer than others.

I recently had the chance to read a copy of Mr. Parker's Secrets of Chinese Karate, that contained the "Book Set". What was outlined in the book is actually the Two-Man Set, and not Panther. I always understood that the reference to the name "Book Set" was due to the inclusion in the publication. That would mean that Two-Man Set is the Book Set, and not Panther. However, I've seen Panther also referred to as "Book Set". Anyone got any comments to clarify that point?

Book Set (Panther) was originally going to be in the book.

(edit) but I see that was already covered...

 

[dianhsuhe]

Xing-Lu, please accept my apology for being assertive and not reading each thread as you have mentioned.

I am afraid I went into "protection mode" as I have done so many times in regards to Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha.

It is obvious you know quite well what you are talking about and I apologize again for being a bit of a jerk.

I am convinced we know each other then as I have been in Kara-Ho since 1993.

Take care and please have no hard feelings.

P.S. lame-Bo is different as a result of Shihan Ka'imi's training with Sifu Dwight. Good stuff!

Sensei Jamey
Sandan, Kara-Ho

 

[Xinglu]

Xing-Lu, please accept my apology for being assertive and not reading each thread as you have mentioned.

I am afraid I went into "protection mode" as I have done so many times in regards to Kara-Ho and Grandmaster Kuoha.

It is obvious you know quite well what you are talking about and I apologize again for being a bit of a jerk.

I am convinced we know each other then as I have been in Kara-Ho since 1993.

Take care and please have no hard feelings.

P.S. lame-Bo is different as a result of Shihan Ka'imi's training with Sifu Dwight. Good stuff!

Sensei Jamey
Sandan, Kara-Ho

James, no hard feelings. I too have on many occasions gone into protection mode regarding the arts I have studied and my instructors, none more often then Kara-Ho. I know exactly where you are coming from brother.

I'm sure we know each other, you're name is familiar to me. I would love to see what she has done with the Bo set.

Peace be with you!