True words here. I guess we could use this example. Take Mike Tyson, in the early years. Now, I know skill levels will always be different, but Mike was KO'ing people in the ring, now imagine facing him in the street.
Mike
Defense Against The Boxer
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
True words here. I guess we could use this example. Take Mike Tyson, in the early years. Now, I know skill levels will always be different, but Mike was KO'ing people in the ring, now imagine facing him in the street.
Mike
Bah, martial sport, what do they know about real fighting?
......sarcasm emoticon, sarcasm emoticon, sarcasm emoticon.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
I agree that there have been no bad answers here. In addition, this is a question that requires a very personal response; evey MA will favor a reaction based on individual training, experience, relative size, body type and gifts, and more. But I also agree, having also been in and around some real messes, that trained boxers--even street 'boxers'--should be treated with weight. For example, my assumption of what was 'out of their range' was more than once well within their range. Shame on me for underestimating a street fighter. Add to this that these guys are often used to absorbing punishment, and the adrenaline dump often works for them. Now if it's also a guy who also has frequented our fine county or state institutions, the ones with bars, and maybe doesn't mind going back (all the homies are there, 3 hots and a cot, etc.), and he's not hampered by fear of jail time--as we might be.
So my answer: I'm going to stay away from his hands and use hard straight kicks to blast his legs and/or groin; don't move straight back (or forward after landing a kick), but to oblique angles. If he starts getting wary of my legs and drops his guard, attack soft targets in neck or face to end it. But I'm not going to trade fists with him. Way too chancy.
I thought I'd add in a little visual commentary to this thread. While surfing youtube, I came across some boxing clips. Thought these were pretty interesting.
John Carlo
John Carlo
John Carlo
Now, I realize that these are clips showing ring fights. However, my point of posting them is that you have a large man who obviously knows how to punch.
*note* Be patient, as the clips take a bit to load.
Mike
John Carlo
John Carlo
John Carlo
Now, I realize that these are clips showing ring fights. However, my point of posting them is that you have a large man who obviously knows how to punch.
*note* Be patient, as the clips take a bit to load.
Mike
searcher
Senior Master
LawDog summed it up great. Only thing I will ad is don't be expecting to come out with out taking some hard shots and never expect to get a one-shot knockout.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
One thing that occurred to me in this discussion, from which I'm learning a lot, is that there seems to be a lot of respect for people trained as boxers, due to the way they train; lots of footwork drills, strong punching, used to taking hits and pain.
I guess my question is, does anyone train their MA like that? Why or why not?
I guess my question is, does anyone train their MA like that? Why or why not?
kidswarrior
Senior Master
Good question. I'd like to focus on the first part, though. A caveat on boxers being able to take pain: their conditioning is above the waist. Hit them in the head, they say 'Thank you.' They're generally not used to pain from being kicked below the waist. Just as I couldn't take a barrage of fists to the head from them (even one shot could do me in), they may not hold up too well against my barrage to their legs, or even kicks to abdomen below the waist [bladder and pubic bone, even hip crease]. For me, the key is to make them fight my fight, and to not at any price allow them to make me fight their fight.
I try to train this way, Jay, but it's very difficult to find people willing to do it, and it's probably dicey for an MA school to do this systematically. I've been thinking about why this is and this is my undocumented, impressionistic hunch about the answer.
I suspect that historically, people who have gone into boxing seriously have come from hardscrabble, tough backgrounds where the main form of `conflict resolution', as Meadow Soprano delicately puts in a comment about a nasty physical attack by one mafia footsoldier on another one, involves smashing something breakable in someone else's face and kicking their ribs in while they're on the ground clutching their heads. I've known a couple of boxers and both of them came from New York City neighborhoods that were extremely rough. For these guys, there was never a question about what the really important combat range was: toe-to-toe, and may the hardest puncher win. Most of the people I've known in the MAs, on the contrary, come from fairly comfortable middle class households or in some cases from upwardly mobile blue-collar areas, places where violence, though not completely unknown, isn't an always-present fact of life.
This difference in class origins is reflected in media treament of boxing vs. karate/gung fu/etc. Movies tend not to glorify or mystify boxing; on the contrary, it's typically presented as gritty and exploitive at best and corrupt and self-destructive at worst (not sure about the Rocky series, and there are exceptions—Here Comes Mr. Jordan, but that wasn't exactly a typical boxing (or typical anything) movie). Asian MAs on the contrary are romanticized and depicted in an essentially legendary light in just about every example (good or bad) of the genre that I can think of. You don't get boxing trainers and coaches uttering cryptic koan-like pieces of wisdom in the ears of their fighters between rounds; they're much more likely to be reminding their battered charges that the opponent is supposed to have a glass jaw.
I think that this difference in the expectations of participants (in general; there are bound to be exceptions in both directions, I know) expresses itself in differences in the default fighting ranges of boxing on the one hand and, say, karate/TKD on the other. Boxers expect to fight at close range because they expect to hit each other hard and fast, which is unpleasant, but if you box, that's what you have to learn to take. But most of the people who go into TMAs do not want to take those kinds of blows and don't come from backgrounds where they expect to have to take them. Any combat they engage in, they would prefer take place at nice safe distances. Hence the sparring ranges of sport karate and Olympic TKD, where the combatants stand 8-10' apart and throw high kicks, moving in but then backing out and to the side to evade the other's strikes. It's a very different mindset, and it corresponds to the fact that professionals are probably much more likely to be ferrying their kids to and from TKD or gung fu classes than boxing clubs.
This is just a kind of thinking aloud on my part about the difference between boxing and TMAs and why boxers are (rightly!) feared by everyone except, maybe, other boxers. It's only a very rough guess that would take a lot of refinement and documentation to defend in detail. But it might get at the roots of what Jay is asking about...
green meanie
Master Black Belt
We train like that. It might not be for everyone, but for us it's right, and I can't imagine doing it any other way. :asian:
Adept
Master Black Belt
Exile, that was an excellent post. If I could give you some more greenies, I would, but they tell me I have to share the love some more first...
Thanks, Adept, very much—the main thing is, I'm glad this picture makes at least some sense. I've thought for a long time that the somewhat strange conditions under which Asian MAs were transplanted to the western world led to a serious disconnection between the mean street/all business way these arts were practiced in their places of origin vs. the way most of us practice them in our far more comfortable lives. Of course there are exceptions: the soldiers, LEOs, bodyguards and bouncers, for whom the MAs are the same crucial everyday survival skills they were for the karateka who practiced them on mean streets all over Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese and Korean towns where the odds were seriously stacked against you if you weren't wealthy and well-connected. Most of us who train seriously, with the best will in the world, just can't duplicate that mind-set—who would want to if they had any other options? Serious boxers are hungry in a way that most students of Asian MAs, even those of us who consider ourselves serious, are not; along with that hunger comes a willingness to suffer serious pain if there's a chance of wordly success at the end.
I always thought that Simon and Garfunkel's best song by far was The Boxer, just because it communicated so brilliantly the savage pain and desire that drives people to accept and mete out the kind of physical brutality that boxing demands of its practitioners. It starts by declaring
I am just a poor boy...
and at the end we have this incredibly vivid picture:
In the clearing stands a boxer, and a fighter by his trade
And he carries the reminders
Of every glove that laid him down or cut him til he cried out, in his anger and his shame,
I am leaving, I am leaving, but the fighter still remains...
I just can't see myself as that man, nor I suspect can most of us... but that's the essence of the reason why none of us would ever want to be on the other end of a physical confrontation with a real boxer.
We did, when I was in it. Mostly, cause getting into real scraps a bit lets you know a flat footed stance and some hard blocks doesn't cut it.
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