Defending against multiple dogs

[rompida]

One dog? Kill it. Multiple dogs? Kill one, then the next, the next.. likely get hurt, but it's your best chance. Don't run, as is said above they will chase you down and they are always faster than you, unless it's a tiny dog.. in which case why are you running? Never hesitate. Once it's defence time, it's dead doggy time. Eyes is useful, just like with people. Crush the trachea if you can ('windpipe'), strikes to it will 'worry' the dog as well, possibly making it back off, probably making it slow down even if it keeps at it. If you get it right you can kick a spot on the ribcage that will always (assuming a minimum but easily achievable level of power) fold the ribcage and kill it within a minute (a minute during which it won't be doing anything but dying)..

Sorry.......but I don't buy in to that. Ever seen dogs fight? They are extremely agile and fast, and they don't give a rat's @ss what is happening to them when they are in battle mode. Go ahead - aim for its eyes. By the time your fingers are there, you will be poking teeth instead. Against multiple dogs, especially large breeds - you're pretty well screwed. Sorry, Gaidhead but it doesn't sound like you know much about this situation. Where or who gave you this information that you will kill them with a quick kick to the ribs? The dog will most likely maneuver to absorb or completely dodge the blow anyway. We as humans are only superior to these animals in that we are smarter (or so we believe). They move faster than us, hunt better than us, smell better, etc. So humans have to rely on their brain - that's why we invented swords, knives, guns. We can't hang with wild animals without them. Evolution favored our brains over brawn.

-rompida

 

[Gaidheal]

Actually, they do work. I also said you'd get hurt with multiple dogs - for example, sadly the best time to get the dog (as in mostly likely it work before dog decides he doesn't like the direction your fingers are going) is when it has just bitten you and is recovering from the bite, assuming it even wants to let go at that point.

As for the ribcage thing.. sorry, it's something I have actually had a vet agree with. The first person I ever heard it from was a former RSPCA officer, who knew 'just in case' (they try to avoid killing dogs at pretty much all costs, after all!). I've never had to do more than knock a basically over-enthusiastic (big) dog aside and then by body language and tone of voice make it clear that *I'm* 'alpha' and I don't want him any nearer than a foot or two.

However, yes, I've seen them fight a man in 'real' footage a few times and I've seen a pack attack animals on many, many occasions. I know they are faster than humans and they also have a big strength-to-weight ratio if they are anything from 'medium' to 'large'. I think the point was already made that you won't get out unhurt from multiple dogs and may not with a single dog. But you CAN get out and what I wrote can help. Personally I'd hope to have a gun with me, though it's unlikely in the UK.

 

[TonyM.]

Having been there I can tell you that the stomach and ribcage are your best targets.

 

[kenpo12]

Actually, they do work. I also said you'd get hurt with multiple dogs - for example, sadly the best time to get the dog (as in mostly likely it work before dog decides he doesn't like the direction your fingers are going) is when it has just bitten you and is recovering from the bite, assuming it even wants to let go at that point.

As for the ribcage thing.. sorry, it's something I have actually had a vet agree with. The first person I ever heard it from was a former RSPCA officer, who knew 'just in case' (they try to avoid killing dogs at pretty much all costs, after all!). I've never had to do more than knock a basically over-enthusiastic (big) dog aside and then by body language and tone of voice make it clear that *I'm* 'alpha' and I don't want him any nearer than a foot or two.

However, yes, I've seen them fight a man in 'real' footage a few times and I've seen a pack attack animals on many, many occasions. I know they are faster than humans and they also have a big strength-to-weight ratio if they are anything from 'medium' to 'large'. I think the point was already made that you won't get out unhurt from multiple dogs and may not with a single dog. But you CAN get out and what I wrote can help. Personally I'd hope to have a gun with me, though it's unlikely in the UK.

Everone knows someone who knows, but all you have to do is look up some simple anatomy online to describe the spot, but since it's not true you can't tell us. There is no "magic spot". Biologically the only reason we are higher on the food chain than dogs is because we have the ability to make weapons and tools. Empty handed against a dog you are pretty much hosed. Like I've said the fetal postition is the safest thing to do. The harder you fight against a medium to large sized dog that is intent on winning the worse you are going to get hurt.
Now, the only thing that you said that is true is that dogs are unlikely to attack humans, especially unprovoked. But if you find yourself in their territory and they are committed to hurting you (not just warning you) then unless you are armed you are more than likely going to get hurt or killed, and no magic kicking spot, attempts to shove a hand down their throat will save you.

 

[Gaidheal]

I know me, who knows. I'm not all that interested in looking it up, is all; at the risk of starting a flame itself, I'm going to point out that "Flame-Jutsu" is not an art I'm interested in. I have my own knowledge and experience to back up my position and opinion, others have theirs. The point of sharing is to let others see what we know and see what they have to say and know. I'm not the least bit interested in "Proving myself right" it really doesn't bother me, because at the end of the day I know what to do, for myself and why and I have a fair idea of what I'd look like at the end of such an unfortunate encounter. I do know that with the application of what I know I will improve my chances.

The suggestion that we are higher on the food chain because of tools isn't really true.. it's mostly because we're smarter and not worth the effort even if we were not - too little meat to be really worth the energy. Also, dogs will attack humans, as has been evidenced, but wolves won't and don't. Indeed there is not a single reliable account of a wolve attacking a human and very few accounts of it happening at all. It's an odd European prejudice against wolves, possibly because they can be scary if you live near the woods they typically like to hear them. Dogs on the other hand are often breeding experiments in creating a wolf-like animal that can be made to attack others humans on command. Not too surprising then that sometimes we end up with dogs who attack humans without that command because they decide THEY are the alpha and not any human.

Foetal position with a pack that has decided to tear you will just make sure they don't get hurt doing it. You might be left alive (but horribly mauled) if you are lucky.. you might not. Sure as hell not my choice of action.

By the way, there are no 'magic' spots on any animal, but there are lots of nerve points, structurally weak joints, etc. That is why we do locks, holds, breaks and nerve strikes. At least in my art and any worth its salt for self defence.

John

P.S. I have heard the throat thing too, by the way.

P.P.S. Having thought about it a little, I think 'the spot' is essentially the sternum/breastbone or at least what we'll call it were it a human.

 

[kenpo12]

I know me, who knows. I'm not all that interested in looking it up, is all; at the risk of starting a flame itself, I'm going to point out that "Flame-Jutsu" is not an art I'm interested in. I have my own knowledge and experience to back up my position and opinion, others have theirs. The point of sharing is to let others see what we know and see what they have to say and know. I'm not the least bit interested in "Proving myself right" it really doesn't bother me, because at the end of the day I know what to do, for myself and why and I have a fair idea of what I'd look like at the end of such an unfortunate encounter. I do know that with the application of what I know I will improve my chances.

The suggestion that we are higher on the food chain because of tools isn't really true.. it's mostly because we're smarter and not worth the effort even if we were not - too little meat to be really worth the energy. Also, dogs will attack humans, as has been evidenced, but wolves won't and don't. Indeed there is not a single reliable account of a wolve attacking a human and very few accounts of it happening at all. It's an odd European prejudice against wolves, possibly because they can be scary if you live near the woods they typically like to hear them. Dogs on the other hand are often breeding experiments in creating a wolf-like animal that can be made to attack others humans on command. Not too surprising then that sometimes we end up with dogs who attack humans without that command because they decide THEY are the alpha and not any human.

Foetal position with a pack that has decided to tear you will just make sure they don't get hurt doing it. You might be left alive (but horribly mauled) if you are lucky.. you might not. Sure as hell not my choice of action.

By the way, there are no 'magic' spots on any animal, but there are lots of nerve points, structurally weak joints, etc. That is why we do locks, holds, breaks and nerve strikes. At least in my art and any worth its salt for self defence.

John

P.S. I have heard the throat thing too, by the way.

P.P.S. Having thought about it a little, I think 'the spot' is essentially the sternum/breastbone or at least what we'll call it were it a human.

I'm not trying to flame either, it's just that not only have I had and been around dogs my whole life but studying dogs is on of my hobbies. I am by no means an expert but I would say I know more than the average joe about dogs.

I do agree with you about people breeding dogs to attack but generally there also has to be some training involved to get a dog to attack. Will dogs attack unprovoked? Yes, that is because of domestication and lack of fear of humans. That is why wolves don't generally attack humans, because of the fear and lack of contact with humans. Dogs on the other hand (in general) aren't as afraid of humans.

Yes we are smarter than dogs hence the ability to make weapons, shelter, tools, etc to provide protection against animals. But when it comes to fighting ability while unarmed, humans are not equiped to handle a dog, at least not one that is determined. You can try to kick the sturnum but the one detail you're not realizing is that you won't be able to kick or hit that area due to the angle of attack. You will not be able to hit pressure points on a dog either, don't let anyone fool you, that will not work on an aggressing dog. I've seen more than one piece of footage of a police dog taking a .45 round and still taking down the shooter until the arresting officer could take control of the suspect. Don't tell me a kick will work if .45 round won't.

Don't confuse what I'm saying about a determined dog with what will happen with most strays or dogs that are just trying to "warn" you. In those cases a nice "pop" to muzzle will usually do the trick. But a determined dog is a whole different story.

 

[Gaidheal]

Ah, ok. I think perhaps you have identified an area where we agree. I think a dog that wants to really kill you/restrain (LOE scenario) you, above all else, is going to be mighty difficult to deal with. Multiple dogs of the same mindset and I don't see a win without firearms and not necessarily even then. I was going with the "stray dog goes for suddenly appeared human threat" type scenario or "Misguided big dog tries to assert dominance" for the one on one scenario. With the multiples I assumed a 'pack' that was running wild (seen it happen in Kuwait) in which case if you put up a fight and hurt, or even kill one or two the rest may back off or even turn on the injured dogs themselves.

I'm interested in how you come to have such a level of expertise, I have to admit. I have an interest and mild level of "expertise" wrt Wolves, but domesticated dogs are so different, not least because there are so many breeds with definite traits, that it's not really the same at all aside from absolute basics - pack dynamics, say.

I wouldn't want to argue with a dog that could take a .45 in its stride. I suppose, perhaps it is much as with people, many people are untrained in MA, poorly conditioned, etc, but sometimes the other guy is a Black Belt in multiple arts and the fittest man on the planet.

Anyhow, I am going purely on my own experience and knowledge to date and I don't want to argue the point, was just sharing. With that in mind, I'd actually like to hear what you have to say in the same spirit, because I can learn from it myself.

John

 

[8253]

12 guage double 00 buck should do the trick. if not available hope you can run faster than the dogs. ive also heard mace works pretty well

 

[Gaidheal]

Strangely, the times I am around dogs at all are when precisely those weapons (shotguns) are also usually around. I do not own one myself, currently, but I have fired them, as a nine-year old was my first actually, heh! (One school activity was clay pigeon shooting). In the UK guns are rare and controlled very tightly as compared to, say, the USA. It's very difficult today to legitimately own a pistol and noone outside of the military can legally own an automatic rifle, for example. But I would only be near a gun in a scenario where any attack is extremely unlikely (sports shooting of some kind, or spectator to a 'hunt' [dogs on rabbits or foxes]). Anyway.. yeah, I reckon that'd [12 bore with appropriate sized shot] do it. Makes a mess of rabbits, for sure.

John

 

[kenpo12]

Ah, ok. I think perhaps you have identified an area where we agree. I think a dog that wants to really kill you/restrain (LOE scenario) you, above all else, is going to be mighty difficult to deal with. Multiple dogs of the same mindset and I don't see a win without firearms and not necessarily even then. I was going with the "stray dog goes for suddenly appeared human threat" type scenario or "Misguided big dog tries to assert dominance" for the one on one scenario. With the multiples I assumed a 'pack' that was running wild (seen it happen in Kuwait) in which case if you put up a fight and hurt, or even kill one or two the rest may back off or even turn on the injured dogs themselves.

I'm interested in how you come to have such a level of expertise, I have to admit. I have an interest and mild level of "expertise" wrt Wolves, but domesticated dogs are so different, not least because there are so many breeds with definite traits, that it's not really the same at all aside from absolute basics - pack dynamics, say.

I wouldn't want to argue with a dog that could take a .45 in its stride. I suppose, perhaps it is much as with people, many people are untrained in MA, poorly conditioned, etc, but sometimes the other guy is a Black Belt in multiple arts and the fittest man on the planet.

Anyhow, I am going purely on my own experience and knowledge to date and I don't want to argue the point, was just sharing. With that in mind, I'd actually like to hear what you have to say in the same spirit, because I can learn from it myself.

John

I know what you mean about the stays in Kuwait, I did a tour in Saudi Arabia and ran into the same type of stray dogs. Usually a really loud noise or a rock would take care of them but with dogs like that they tend to be a bit more wolf like due to lack of human contact.

I wouldn't say it's expertise but my father was a K-9 handler in the military which always had my interest. Due to that interest and always growing up with dogs I just began reading. I've read alot of books by Bruce Fogal DVM and quite a few other publications, that combined having my own dogs and volunteering for a pet rescue I've gotten to understand dogs pretty well.

Although we started with opposing views, for the most part I think we're actually on the same page.

 

[Gaidheal]

"Although we started with opposing views, for the most part I think we're actually on the same page." - I'd hope so ;¬) I'm here to learn and to share. But yeah, I'd say. If I could get out of the situation safely I'd never fight a dog, let alone dogs (assuming I have noone else to protect, etc). I don't like them and big dogs come close to scaring me. This is a really bad SD situation (being scared/unhappy about your chances to win). But if I absolutely had to fight I'd do pretty much what I said and hope to come out alive and get reconstructive surgery. Honestly, that's what I'd expect with multiple large animals attacking in a determined fashion, as a stray dog pack might.

Sounds like you have more experience than I of the dogs and I am quite happy to admit that, I answered on the experience I have which is mostly watching dogs kill other animals or lounge around other people's houses. As I said, the only time I 'fought' a dog was to knock aside a Rottweiler who charged me.. very possibly just to jump up and lick me. My instinct took over and side-stepped/turned (sort of both) and hammered my right forearm and left fist into his side/ribcage knocking him away (not by much!). He was a bit surprised, but basically unhurt and I went straight into an aggressive stance and shouted "Siadh, a chu!" ('Sit, dog!' in Gàidhlig - for some reason I have found dogs respond well to it.. or maybe they are just puzzled by Gàidhlig like everyone else, heh!). Dog sat down, friend was stunned by it and concerned for their dog as well as me, but everyone was fine and now they are careful about opening the doors wide and allowing the dog to charge people down :¬)

I freely admit that my combat experience against dogs is limited to that aside from footage of dog attacks. And I concurr that people are not easily getting out unhurt, in fact I think highly unlikely they get away without at least a mild bite/tear. Realistically, a knife might work. It's just not a weapon I'm happy to carry around, especially in this country. But in any case... yeah. I was an "honoured guest of Saddam Hussein" in Kuwait, by the way *sigh* (1990). But still, life goes on and that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

John