Self-defense FOR one's dog

[BLACK LION]

I've seen a few threads at MT about SD against dogs, but what about protecting our beloved pets?

In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal. Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament. I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for his safety than my own if it ever came to that.

In my Systema class every so often I try to brainstorm what movements would be safe for him in his over-the-shoulder leash, and I come up blank every time. I still carry my pepper spray as a visual deterrent but I'd really hesitate to use it on the chance of spraying either one of us. (I may soon switch to a taser.)

How do other people approach this? Any suggestions?

I have had a few occassions in which I either had to come to my own dogs rescue or a dog of another owner.

1 thing remains true... you ARE the bigger animal... I have deterred dogs with bright flashlights(night) ... I have deterred them by advancing with my arms out and yelling or growling very loud.. I saved a dog from certain death by grabbing the attacking dogs trachea/esophagus and the base of its skull simultaneously... it could not breathe or swallow so it became more docile after dropping the other dog... If you have to put hands on the dog I recommed the throat becuase most animals understand what that means. I am not an advocate for pepper sprak but a 1million volt taser may work wonders.

 

[K-man]

In one of my other lives, my wife and I are dog obedience instructors, train dogs (German Shepherds) and trial them in obedience.

From sgtmac:

The BEST self-defense for your animal is Obedience training, Obedience training, Obedience training........the biggest threat to dogs on a leash is suddenly finding themselves off a leash and the owner having no verbal control over them.

The absolute best self-defense skill your dog can master is being able to be put on a VERBAL DOWN command, and remain there for 5 or 10 minutes, EVEN with you not in sight. That means that you'll be able to order a down and be sure your dog will stay put while you take care of whatever business as necessary........and that INCLUDES obeying the down command when approached by another dog or seeing a cat or other fleeing animal!

Great advice.

However even the best trained dogs can lose it if a cat or a rabbit get too close. We use head harnesses or shoulder harnesses if we are running the dogs beside our bikes. (This is to protect us, not the dogs. ) The products we use are similar to the ones shown here : http://www.petshop-online.com.au/category77_1.htm
The main difference with the head halter is that our one pulls from behind the neck and keeps the neck straight. The 'Halti' type pull the head down and to the side.
These products don't hurt the dog but because they don't like the restriction created when they pull, they soon learn to keep the lead loose.

 

[kaizasosei]

Give them lots of love. Teach them good body dynamics and always respect their position(as well as hold your own). Don't use much force especially not physical force. Dogs have a sense of justice. Play with them playful critters using various scenarios and you can teach them whatever you like.


j

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!

I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!

I don't know if this kind of stubbornness is common to labs or what -- he's my first. He and I go on a nice walk every day and I am constantly tugging him back to my side, then for a second he'll walk along tamely but before I know it he's edged out front again to pull me on. Very frustrating.

He also doesn't appear to hear me when he's very interested in something else. So in an emergency situation, I'm sure he'd completely ignore any command, be it Down or Come or whatever.

Oh well, sorry to vent, I agree it would be splendid to have him so well trained as you describe...at my wits end on this one though.

Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing.

There is an art to using the pinch collar (not the choke collar).........when walking the dog, when he decides he wants to bolt ahead, a quick correction is given with a firm 'No'.....not yelled, but in an even voice........the correction has to be at the right level.........and each dog is different. Hard enough to make him immediately look at you after the correction, but not so hard that he cowers.......it's what some trainers call the 'Ouch' correction.

Once you know where his level of 'Ouch' is.......and Labs are actually pretty tough dogs as a group........you correct when he tries to pull away.

Here's a pretty good article from Ed Frawley....... http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm

I agree with Frawley, that the ideal dog training involves both rewards and correction.........and he points out quite well that dog training involves three phases.........

1) Learning phase....the dog has to know what you want from him.
2) Correction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want or be corrected
3) Distraction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want, even when faced with serious distraction, such as dogs, other animals, etc.

 

[sgtmac_46]

In one of my other lives, my wife and I are dog obedience instructors, train dogs (German Shepherds) and trial them in obedience.

From sgtmac:

Great advice.

However even the best trained dogs can lose it if a cat or a rabbit get too close. We use head harnesses or shoulder harnesses if we are running the dogs beside our bikes. (This is to protect us, not the dogs. ) The products we use are similar to the ones shown here : http://www.petshop-online.com.au/category77_1.htm
The main difference with the head halter is that our one pulls from behind the neck and keeps the neck straight. The 'Halti' type pull the head down and to the side.
These products don't hurt the dog but because they don't like the restriction created when they pull, they soon learn to keep the lead loose.

The best advice is to know your dog......and a high prey drive dog will always want to pursue fleeing objects.

I've owned and trained GSD's and Belgian Malinois, and there's nothing more annoying than watching your 9 month old Malinois launch like a rocket for 6 blocks chasing some stray cat!

 

[Flea]

Personally I'm on the "positive methods" side myself. It's worked better than anything else I've tried with my dog. The most hard-line I get with him is turn my back on him most emphatically when he gets into that self-reinforcing barking loop. He stops instantly, and I instantly turn around with lots of praise. I find that when I get punitive he gets resentful, and it's a stalemate that's no fun for either of us.

Naturally, every dog (like every human!) is unique. That's part of the fun, figuring out what works best for any individual.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Personally I'm on the "positive methods" side myself. It's worked better than anything else I've tried with my dog. The most hard-line I get with him is turn my back on him most emphatically when he gets into that self-reinforcing barking loop. He stops instantly, and I instantly turn around with lots of praise. I find that when I get punitive he gets resentful, and it's a stalemate that's no fun for either of us.

Naturally, every dog (like every human!) is unique. That's part of the fun, figuring out what works best for any individual.

I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.

Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......

As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual dog.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used. Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in dog training. Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their dog bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.

 

[teekin]

Elder, the woman in the area that runs the pittie rescue Breeds Fila's. I don't mind working with the pitties but keep far far away from her Fila's. I still think Flea needs a female Fila and a few training sessions with Cesar Millan. I bet a whole whack of the anxiety issues that plauge her would evaporate.
lori

 

[K-man]

Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing.

There is an art to using the pinch collar (not the choke collar).........when walking the dog, when he decides he wants to bolt ahead, a quick correction is given with a firm 'No'.....not yelled, but in an even voice........the correction has to be at the right level.........and each dog is different. Hard enough to make him immediately look at you after the correction, but not so hard that he cowers.......it's what some trainers call the 'Ouch' correction.

Once you know where his level of 'Ouch' is.......and Labs are actually pretty tough dogs as a group........you correct when he tries to pull away.

Here's a pretty good article from Ed Frawley....... http://leerburg.com/philosophy.htm

I agree with Frawley, that the ideal dog training involves both rewards and correction.........and he points out quite well that dog training involves three phases.........

1) Learning phase....the dog has to know what you want from him.
2) Correction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want or be corrected
3) Distraction phase....the dog learns he must do what you want, even when faced with serious distraction, such as dogs, other animals, etc.

The OP containes this para:

In my daily meanderings in my neighborhood, I'm usually accompanied by my dog, an arthritic 8yo retired medical service animal. Since his retirement he's gotten a bit vocal, but he has impeccable manners and temperament. I know from experience that he will not come to my defense in any altercation, and as such I'm more afraid for his safety than my own if it ever came to that.

This is an 8 yo arthritic dog. I am assuming that the 'pinch' collar you speak of is the 'prong' collar that he is suggesting. To suggest a prong collar in this situation is totally inappropriate. For the record prong collars are banned in Australia. That is like using a cattle prod on your 70 yr old grandmother for stopping to look in a shop window while walking with you because you didn't want to stop.
Frawley only recommends prong collars as a last resort if your level 5 correction, using a normal collar, is having no effect.
The Frawley article quoted is a fantastic article. But you have selectively quoted what he says so that it does not represent the article.
He says:

There is a big difference between using force to train a dog and using correction in your training. This article you confirm that I am not a fan of forced training. But with this said, you will also learn that to ignore corrections during training or to use the wrong correction at the wrong time can actually set your training back and possibly destroy the bond between you and your dog.

The halter collar I recommended is not the same as the one Frawley criticised. I would never recommend those either. They pull the dogs head down and to the side. The good ones apply pressure to the muzzle, without turning the head, by directing the pull from the back of the neck.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The OP containes this para: This is an 8 yo arthritic dog. I am assuming that the 'pinch' collar you speak of is the 'prong' collar that he is suggesting. To suggest a prong collar in this situation is totally inappropriate. For the record prong collars are banned in Australia. That is like using a cattle prod on your 70 yr old grandmother for stopping to look in a shop window while walking with you because you didn't want to stop.

First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.

Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again.

Third, your attempt at anthropomorphism, i.e. comparing a pack animal, like, to grandma illustrates everything we need to know.

Frawley only recommends prong collars as a last resort if your level 5 correction, using a normal collar, is having no effect.
The Frawley article quoted is a fantastic article. But you have selectively quoted what he says so that it does not represent the article.
He says:
The halter collar I recommended is not the same as the one Frawley criticised. I would never recommend those either. They pull the dogs head down and to the side. The good ones apply pressure to the muzzle, without turning the head, by directing the pull from the back of the neck.

I didn't selective quote anything......I provided a LINK to the article. I didn't even quote Frawley....period.

I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.

Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......

As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual dog.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used. Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in dog training. Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their dog bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.

Before you take exception, trying reading what I actually said, not what you jumped to the conclusion I said.......as to the prong collar issue, again, HERE was the source of that, not your 8 year old arthritic strawman.

Allow me to post it again for your edification.

Sgt, that sounds like great advice, I just don't know how I could possibly follow it myself!

I have a 2 and 1/2 year old Labrador. He's sweet and gentle but very headstrong. He is a continuous leash puller. I have taken him to obedience school to no avail. Their advice is always "give the leash slack and praise and offer treats when he isn't pulling, that will train him to walk next to you nicely." Horsepuckey!!

I don't know if this kind of stubbornness is common to labs or what -- he's my first. He and I go on a nice walk every day and I am constantly tugging him back to my side, then for a second he'll walk along tamely but before I know it he's edged out front again to pull me on. Very frustrating.

He also doesn't appear to hear me when he's very interested in something else. So in an emergency situation, I'm sure he'd completely ignore any command, be it Down or Come or whatever.

Oh well, sorry to vent, I agree it would be splendid to have him so well trained as you describe...at my wits end on this one though.

Context.....it's EVERYTHING!



Sure, the purely positive crowd can whine all it wants........but it's not me with my dogs out of control, who can't stay on a down for 5 minutes, even with me out of sight, or that gets run over in traffic because they found themselves off leash. The prong pinch collar is a valuable training tool for many dogs to whom hot dogs and clickers are an exercise in futility.

Three phases of dog training........

1) Learning
2) Correction
3) Distraction

Repeating Phase 1 over and over again gets us only so far.

 

[sgtmac_46]

<Duplicate>

 

[Flea]

Sure, the purely positive crowd can whine all it wants........but it's not me with my dogs out of control, who can't stay on a down for 5 minutes, even with me out of sight, or that gets run over in traffic because they found themselves off leash.

I agree that different breeds would need varying levels of correction, but I'm more focused on keeping my own dog safe from crackheads. Overall I'm very pleased with his level of training; during his working days we were in a restaurant when a waiter dropped a tray near us and Fido caught a pork chop in mid-air. I held a hand under his chin and crooned "leave it;" he quietly went *ptooie* without a question, and resumed his nap under the table. Dog training doesn't get much better than that.

Sgtmac I appreciate your input, but I think we're veering a little too far off-topic. The question at issue here is how (if at all?) one could keep one's pet safe while fighting off a human-on-human attack.

Since my own dog's retirement, I've only worked him on the regular pet-level commands like down, stay, leave it, etc. His biggest vulnerability in a SD scenario would be his border-collie ancestry. That herding compulsion could be an asset if his nips are mistaken as an "attack," but more than likely he'd just find himself trampled underfoot, poor booger. I don't think there's enough down-stay work in the world that could overcome the herding instinct. That's what worries me.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I agree that different breeds would need varying levels of correction, but I'm more focused on keeping my own dog safe from crackheads. Overall I'm very pleased with his level of training; during his working days we were in a restaurant when a waiter dropped a tray near us and Fido caught a pork chop in mid-air. I held a hand under his chin and crooned "leave it;" he quietly went *ptooie* without a question, and resumed his nap under the table. Dog training doesn't get much better than that.

Sgtmac I appreciate your input, but I think we're veering a little too far off-topic. The question at issue here is how (if at all?) one could keep one's pet safe while fighting off a human-on-human attack.

Since my own dog's retirement, I've only worked him on the regular pet-level commands like down, stay, leave it, etc. His biggest vulnerability in a SD scenario would be his border-collie ancestry. That herding compulsion could be an asset if his nips are mistaken as an "attack," but more than likely he'd just find himself trampled underfoot, poor booger. I don't think there's enough down-stay work in the world that could overcome the herding instinct. That's what worries me.

You could certainly overcome the instinct with a little work. The reality is that in the scenario you describe, where you're worried about your dog getting in the fray and getting hurt, a good down command that keeps him out of the fray is the best defense.

That having been said, dogs are not people.......part of a dogs job is sometimes to sacrifice himself for the pack......if the dog nipping at someone attacking you gets him hurt, but prevents further harm from you, that's a noble sacrifice.......but I certainly understand your concern.

Perhaps I should predicate all my opinions on dog training with the understanding that the vast majority of my experience comes from training and working with police service dogs in tracking, detection and bite work. That likely explains the difference between my opinion and many pet trainers......generally the dogs used for police service work are harder and higher drive.

 

[K-man]

First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.

Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again.

Third, your attempt at anthropomorphism, i.e. comparing a pack animal, like, to grandma illustrates everything we need to know.


I didn't selective quote anything......I provided a LINK to the article. I didn't even quote Frawley....period.



Before you take exception, trying reading what I actually said, not what you jumped to the conclusion I said.......as to the prong collar issue, again, HERE was the source of that, not your 8 year old arthritic strawman.

Allow me to post it again for your edification.


Context.....it's EVERYTHING!



Sure, the purely positive crowd can whine all it wants........but it's not me with my dogs out of control, who can't stay on a down for 5 minutes, even with me out of sight, or that gets run over in traffic because they found themselves off leash. The prong pinch collar is a valuable training tool for many dogs to whom hot dogs and clickers are an exercise in futility.

Three phases of dog training........

1) Learning
2) Correction
3) Distraction

Repeating Phase 1 over and over again gets us only so far.

First of all, what Australia bans is entirely irrelevant......stupid laws are stupid laws no matter where you go........and Australia already has plenty of those.

I don't agree with all laws and I agree that some laws could be done better. The pinch collar law is not so stupid as it protects dogs from unnecessary pain inflicted by handlers, the majority of whom have not had adequate instruction as to the proper use of the collar. (We also have gun laws here that are a little different to yours. I am assuming you think they're stupid too!)

Second of all, the prong collar suggestion was for the young high drive LAB, not the original op.........read it again.

I am sorry, I did misread the post. I still wouldn't be using a prong collar though.

Third, your attempt at anthropomorphism, i.e. comparing a pack animal, like, to grandma illustrates everything we need to know.

Yeah, I thought it was a good analogy, even if slightly exagerated, however I was up tight at thinking that you had suggested the prong collar for Flea's dog. My mistake.

I didn't selective quote anything......I provided a LINK to the article. I didn't even quote Frawley....period.

Sorry I thought you were implying this was from Frawley, which it obiously wasn't: "Pinch collar properly applied........don't listen to the 'Purely Positive' crowd.....they usually have their success with dogs that are low-prey drive/high food drive dogs........Labs are high prey drive dogs, and that's what you're experiencing."
Having said that, in another post you said:

I've found striking a good balance between reward based training and correction to be ideal......that balance point is different with different dogs.

Some dogs are very soft temperament dogs, who are so eager to please that all they require to do what they are supposed to is enthusiastic praise.......on the other end of the spectrum are hard dogs with high prey drive who will, if given the opportunity, destroy everything you own and drag you 7 blocks chasing a cat......

As you rightly point out, part of the fun is finding what works for each individual dog.......and where positive motivation works, it should be used. Some people, however, fail to realize that correction has a necessary role in dog training. Those who insist on purely positive methods only end up wondering why their dog bolts across the parking lot under intense distraction.

To this I agree 100%.
I just got messed up with the two dogs. :asian:

 

[sgtmac_46]

I just got messed up with the two dogs. :asian:

Fair enough......if I don't make at least one little mistake a day I start getting cocky and make a BIG mistake the next day! :mst:

 

[Guardian]

I apologize all the way around, I skimmed the question and though you were talking about your dog being attacked by another dog, that's what I get for skim reading.

 

[Flea]

That's all right. I'm into positive reinforcement, so I'll give you a biscuit anyway. :uhyeah: