Decisions

[isshinryuronin]

Ed Parker developed a great system and some outstanding black belts, but for various reasons (won't get into details) they broke away from his organization fairly early on. The Tracy brothers are an example (but even they split from each other), but there are several others. Commercial success was the number one consideration for many. Indeed, Parker set up his system for the American market. There was some aggressive marketing amongst the different factions leading to an increasing number of Kenpo schools, as well as some real conflicts. Parker tried to stem this in part by slightly changing his curicculum so the other guys could not claim to be teaching the "real" kenpo. Parker definitely wanted to be paid by those using his name and brand. He relished his position (which he earned) as the top guy.

Given all this, a lot of time has passed as Flying Crane has mentioned. Can you imagine the old Okinawan masters' families demanding payment from all the gojuryu, isshinryu, etc. dojos that use a certain patch or name of style? It would be seen as quite unseemly. At least in the traditional Oriental culture. Here is where the difference is in my opinion. Ed Parker's Kenpo was AMERICAN kenpo and this carried through to the American mindset of profit and way of doing business. Parker was the first and biggest martial art business mogul. For better and worse, his legacy is what it is.

(I managed/owned a Kenpo school during 1973-74. My partner was a business "consultant" for Ed Parker, though had worked for rival factions as well. I had several personal contacts with Parker in teacher/student, business and social contexts. By no means was I close to him or privy to much more than discussed here.)

 

[JR 137]

Ed Parker developed a great system and some outstanding black belts, but for various reasons (won't get into details) they broke away from his organization fairly early on. The Tracy brothers are an example (but even they split from each other), but there are several others. Commercial success was the number one consideration for many. Indeed, Parker set up his system for the American market. There was some aggressive marketing amongst the different factions leading to an increasing number of Kenpo schools, as well as some real conflicts. Parker tried to stem this in part by slightly changing his curicculum so the other guys could not claim to be teaching the "real" kenpo. Parker definitely wanted to be paid by those using his name and brand. He relished his position (which he earned) as the top guy.

Given all this, a lot of time has passed as Flying Crane has mentioned. Can you imagine the old Okinawan masters' families demanding payment from all the gojuryu, isshinryu, etc. dojos that use a certain patch or name of style? It would be seen as quite unseemly. At least in the traditional Oriental culture. Here is where the difference is in my opinion. Ed Parker's Kenpo was AMERICAN kenpo and this carried through to the American mindset of profit and way of doing business. Parker was the first and biggest martial art business mogul. For better and worse, his legacy is what it is.

(I managed/owned a Kenpo school during 1973-74. My partner was a business "consultant" for Ed Parker, though had worked for rival factions as well. I had several personal contacts with Parker in teacher/student, business and social contexts. By no means was I close to him or privy to much more than discussed here.)

Uechi Ryu went through something similar. To the best of my knowledge they didn’t demand payment. Uechi’s family wanted more oversight and protection of the family name and what was actually being taught. Many simply changed the name of the school/style they were teaching. Pangai Noon became a popular alternative name for those who didn’t want to stay under the Uechi Ryu umbrella. No reports of nastiness that I’ve seen. However Uechi Ryu is far smaller than EPAK.

Kyokushin went through some really bad stuff and possibly still is. The Kyokushin name and kanji’s rightful owner was relatively recently settled. Matsui (head of IKO1) attempted a cease and desist and subsequent lawsuits of wearing and using it for everyone unaffiliated with his faction. Japanese court eventually ruled Oyama’s daughter Kristina was the rightful owner of the name and now everyone who wears Kyokushin kanji (belts, patches, etc.) has to pay her a royalty. Several companies such as Isami stopped selling certain Kyokushin embroidered stuff to the general public; those things must be ordered through specified people.

The Kyokushin name and kanji was made by Mas Oyama. While he was alive it was rightfully his to charge whatever he wanted. Now that he’s dead, it’s rightfully his family’s to do the same. It’s not an exorbitant amount, but it is a standard royalty. The difference is she’s not running down students at tournaments; she went to the sources of the stuff through the companies and courts. That’s the way it should be handled.

 

[Hanzou]

If I were a potential student looking for an effective system, my question would be why should I take this over MMA or Bjj? What does your style of Kempo offer that those systems dont?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I were a potential student looking for an effective system, my question would be why should I take this over MMA or Bjj? What does your style of Kempo offer that those systems dont?

That’s a reasonable starting point if MMA or BJJ (can’t see why they’d be lumped together) is nearly ideal to your intended purpose. I don’t think that is true for all people, though.

 

[dvcochran]

That’s a reasonable starting point if MMA or BJJ (can’t see why they’d be lumped together) is nearly ideal to your intended purpose. I don’t think that is true for all people, though.

Agree. If a person has zero knowledge about any MA style, it is difficult to talk to them about MA's or suggest a specific style. Like a programmer trying to talk to an artist. Two alien languages.
I always try to glean what they are looking for. Often you help them understand that for themselves, explaining specific elements like gym exercise vs. aerobic exercise for example. We all know that the blanket answer "I want to learn how to defend myself" usually has several layers to it.
For some there is a graduation in their learning and knowledge that will lead them to go in different directions, possibly to another style of MA. You always hate to see a good student leave (any student really), but I would never try to hold someone back.

 

[Dasher]

following my thread about the disappointing grading I've been thinking a lot about the state of kenpo and looking around online and realise there is so much crap out there with people being given high ranks who are rubbish and its polluting the art bringing down its reputation. When I started training kenpo was considered extremely tough with hard technique lines brutal gradings and fitness tests and hard sparring. Now it's extremely watered down with a lot of instructors focusing more on theoretical than practical and it's making people think it's useless. I still believe kenpo as it should be taught is one of the best systems for self defence.

I've talked to a few friends of mine who agree with what I'm saying and one of them suggested we start our own club and make it old school training. Making people actually have to work for their belts, testing techniques against resistance and doing hard fitness workouts and sparring multiple opponents. I like the Idea of bringing back the intensity to kenpo but I'm also not sure.

For one there's no market especially for adults. Karate isn't as big as it was and it would be hard to sustain a club in our area. Second there's all the bs rights going on In kenpo. Apparently I'd have to pay a hell of a lot of money to even hang one of my certificates in my own school because it has a logo on it. And I'm to old to be dealing with crap like that. A while back I had a little training group going. Not a school just an informal training session and it was good. It had to stop when I moved away but i don't know.

It just really saddens me that Kenpo at least in my area has completely fallen in quality. It's a style I love and though I train in other systems kenpo will always be my base and I would love to bring back some of the old intensity that isn't seen much anymore in the style.

I realise this was posted back in 2016, and that you may have put the issue to bed already.

Anyway, personally I think anyone trying to get a little energy back into a martial art, especially one that has become too theoretical, and too abstract from its original form is the ultimate work of a martial arts teacher no matter the style.
I once heard someone (Ido Portal I believe) say that when one finds a good teacher the art being taught is secondary, you learn from the teacher who is teaching real things because they are good at what they do, that's so rare in my experience. I'm always on the lookout for those who have solid intentions and practices like yourself. As a young guy I don't really know whether the market would be there but I would join such a class in a heartbeat if I felt what you're saying coming through your teaching.

At least that's my two cents on the matter, but obviously, I'm from Ireland and know little about Kenpo. So take with a pinch of salt I suppose.

 

[Headhunter]

I realise this was posted back in 2016, and that you may have put the issue to bed already.

Anyway, personally I think anyone trying to get a little energy back into a martial art, especially one that has become too theoretical, and too abstract from its original form is the ultimate work of a martial arts teacher no matter the style.
I once heard someone (Ido Portal I believe) say that when one finds a good teacher the art being taught is secondary, you learn from the teacher who is teaching real things because they are good at what they do, that's so rare in my experience. I'm always on the lookout for those who have solid intentions and practices like yourself. As a young guy I don't really know whether the market would be there but I would join such a class in a heartbeat if I felt what you're saying coming through your teaching.

At least that's my two cents on the matter, but obviously, I'm from Ireland and know little about Kenpo. So take with a pinch of salt I suppose.

Um no this most certainly wasn't posted in 2016 lol

 

[CB Jones]

If I were a potential student looking for an effective system, my question would be why should I take this over MMA or Bjj? What does your style of Kempo offer that those systems dont?

Not everyone wants to do MMA or grappling. Some are just interested in some type of striking art.

 

[Buka]

We could rephrase this as - If I were a potential diner looking for a terrific restaurant, my question would be why should I eat here over that Sushi or that pizza place? What does your restaurant offer that those other restaurants do not?

Sometimes it might come down to how far away it is, sometimes what you feel like.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Uechi Ryu went through something similar. To the best of my knowledge they didn’t demand payment. Uechi’s family wanted more oversight and protection of the family name and what was actually being taught. Many simply changed the name of the school/style they were teaching. Pangai Noon became a popular alternative name for those who didn’t want to stay under the Uechi Ryu umbrella. No reports of nastiness that I’ve seen. However Uechi Ryu is far smaller than EPAK.

Kyokushin went through some really bad stuff and possibly still is. The Kyokushin name and kanji’s rightful owner was relatively recently settled. Matsui (head of IKO1) attempted a cease and desist and subsequent lawsuits of wearing and using it for everyone unaffiliated with his faction. Japanese court eventually ruled Oyama’s daughter Kristina was the rightful owner of the name and now everyone who wears Kyokushin kanji (belts, patches, etc.) has to pay her a royalty. Several companies such as Isami stopped selling certain Kyokushin embroidered stuff to the general public; those things must be ordered through specified people.

The Kyokushin name and kanji was made by Mas Oyama. While he was alive it was rightfully his to charge whatever he wanted. Now that he’s dead, it’s rightfully his family’s to do the same. It’s not an exorbitant amount, but it is a standard royalty. The difference is she’s not running down students at tournaments; she went to the sources of the stuff through the companies and courts. That’s the way it should be handled.

Didn't know that about Mas Oyama's family and the court. I'm a little surprised. One would think the perpetuation of the style and the honor paid to the Master would be payment enough. I guess that's progress. Call me old fashioned. Although if a master's name is used as the name of the style or prominent in the marketing, I can see the family getting some money.

 

[Hanzou]

Not everyone wants to do MMA or grappling. Some are just interested in some type of striking art.

I would definity classify MMA as a striking art.

 

[JR 137]

Didn't know that about Mas Oyama's family and the court. I'm a little surprised. One would think the perpetuation of the style and the honor paid to the Master would be payment enough. I guess that's progress. Call me old fashioned. Although if a master's name is used as the name of the style or prominent in the marketing, I can see the family getting some money.

Their was a ton of really sleazy stuff when Oyama died. His last will and testament has been contested since he died. There are a ton of versions of what happened, but here’s what they seem to have in common:

Oyama was dying of cancer. There was no will. A few people visit him, Oyama’s wife steps out, and shortly after his death, there’s a will that was drawn up that day.

All that was left according to the Oyama’s wife and daughters (he didn’t have a son) was their family house being paid off and a minimal monthly payment.

Everything else went to Kyokushin - the dojo, control over things; everything. The person named successor in the will, Matsui, wasn’t on anyone’s radar to succeed Oyama, including Matsui himself.

Oyama built an international empire in the karate world, and his family was cut out of all pretty much all of it, in accordance with the alleged will. The will has been through the court system since he died in 1994.

A while back, Matsui’s people sent cease and desist letters to everyone not connected to his faction, including Kristina Oyama. Kristina Oyama has been running her own Kyokushin dojo and organization for some time. So had several other big names. They filed basically a class action suit, and the court found Kristina Oyama as the owner of Kyokushin name and kanji. Anyone who uses it must pay her a royalty.

IMO she should absolutely be paid. Her father built the empire, and as his living heir, she should be entitled to it, along with far more.

 

[JP3]

That’s a reasonable starting point if MMA or BJJ (can’t see why they’d be lumped together) is nearly ideal to your intended purpose. I don’t think that is true for all people, though.

Yes... people are funny. They see and think about things differently. Shoot, the very same person sees and thinks about the exact same thing differently at different points in their life.

I can promise you that not everyone is interested in MMA. Every MMA gym I've ever trained in is just that, a gym. I'd say that, and though this is a major generalization and I get it, the typical MMA gym have no feel, or sense, of the "tradition" that a lot of people are really, very-very interested in learning about and from.

The dojo where I learned my aikido/aikijutsu beginning in '99 is a prime example. We had a slam-bang, competition judo group of folks... a cerebral, technically innovative group of aikido people, and then there were the sword-swingers (Iaido group). Everyone got along with everyone else, nobody (but me and one other hardheaded wonder) crossed up, doing both judo & aikido. There was no ross-pollination with or by the Iaido people.


And, nobody at all was interested in doing any form of MMA (I'd go teach judo at the MMA gyms years later). People want different things, for different reasons.

Are the people in the Iaido class getting benefit from an SD standpoint from their sword-drawing training? I have no idea, but they think so. Could they get more if they trained with a short blade more, such as combat Arnis/Escrima as an example? Probably. Could they care less? No.

 

[Joopsnoop]

Didn't know that about Mas Oyama's family and the court. I'm a little surprised. One would think the perpetuation of the style and the honor paid to the Master would be payment enough. I guess that's progress. Call me old fashioned. Although if a master's name is used as the name of the style or prominent in the marketing, I can see the family getting some money.

I think the students all got greedy and started to fight for the money. Matsui won. He also did other pretty shady things and ended up owing the government about 3 BILLION yen, which is about US$30 MILLION for some kind of tax fraud. He made some deal and made a profit of US$100 MILLION and didn't declare the real profit and so owed the $30MILLION in tax. I have asked people in Kyokushinkai about it but not much is known. My Japanese friend sent me links but I can't read Japanese so had to use Google translate. If you can work out what the bad translation is saying. Also my friend said Matsui left the family with nothing, not even a home to live. I am looking for more information if anyone has reliable links?

『極真松井派脱税』

The Google Translation is not so good.

Director General Akiyoshi Matsui of the martial arts organization "International Karatedo Federation Kyokushin Kaikan" mediates the acquisition of a staffing company by the former Goodwill Group (GWG), a comprehensive human resources service company It was found that there was an additional tax of about 3 billion yen, including the underreported additional tax, because there was an error in the method of reporting the income of about 10 billion yen received.

According to the people involved, Director Matsui was involved in mediating the acquisition of the staffing company "Crystal" by GWG in October 2006. At that time, it invested in an investment fund that acted as an intermediary, and received about 10 billion yen in cash, including shares and cash, as a distribution in 2007.

　At the time of filing, these were declared as transfer income, and the income tax amount was a billion yen. However, according to the tax examination by the Tokyo National Taxation Bureau, these were recognized as miscellaneous income with a high tax rate, for example as compensation for intermediaries, rather than income due to the transfer of shares and cash. Regarding this acquisition, certified public accountants who are the former president of the intermediary investment business company "Corinthian Partners" have been prosecuted by the Tokyo District Public Prosecutor for violating the corporate tax law and have been convicted by the Tokyo District Court.

Mr. Matsui was raking in money, trying to turn it into a joint-stock company even though he was a martial arts organization, and even when he was just building a new hall and calling for donations to establish the new hall.

I used to be an instructor who was extremely true, but the division was really tough...

Everyone just wanted to do Director Karate Oyama's karate, but who was right because of the fact that the upper part rubbed down? Who is wrong The students were really sorry for being involved.

Kyokushin in the old days was a group of religious groups, with the director Oyama as the god, so it must have been a group of really strong heroes with one idea.

I respected Mr. Matsui, but at the time of the division, I honestly resented him, but I belonged to the Matsui school.

At that time, I was an instructor and a young man, so I couldn't do anything, and I couldn't protect the students.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

A few questions I'd have for you:

1. Is your objective to make money, or to teach kenpo exactly the way you want to? If you want to make money, you may have to do things to make the art more palatable to a general audience (which is where I think a lot of the easier grading comes in). If it's just a hobby and you're more interested in teaching the art, there's that.
2. Why does it have to be with your current organization? In this case, it would almost be a disservice to your students. Let's say, to use an analogy, it takes 8 years of B+ or better level work to get a black belt at your school, and it takes 2 years of D-level work to get your black belt at any other school. So it takes your students 8 years of working hard to get the same certificate someone else got by goofing around for a few years? That's not really fair to your students. Why not be your own organization, just that your credentials come from the other?

Ya just be your own school bro but it will take a lot of work

 

[KenpoMaster805]

If i had my own studio ill call it MBs Kenpo Karate Studio then have my own style and my own grading my student has to earn their belt before they test and make sure they know their stuff like their technique basic sets and form before they test and i wouldnt wanna give the belt right away it has to be earn and i wanna have a program like swat or leadership program or even masters program of course theres also a black belt club and demo team of course and different gi for each program and i dont want my school to be a mac dojo