Debate on the existence of Chi

[RoninPimp]

If it doesn't exist, when would they have over 1,000 years of medical treatments calling for the use, manipulation etc of it?

-That ancient Chinese medicine is not based on empiracism. It is based on folklore and metaphysics.

 

[RoninPimp]

For centuries, people have been researching ki and acquiring a knowledge of it, and have even done experimentation with it. If fact, the definition of science you provided doesn't not support your statement that there is nothing scientific about ki, it does quite the opposite.

I'm not arguing whether ki does or doesn't exist, but the experiences of people over the years and the search for patterns and processes to describe these experiences sounds like the wikipedia definition of science. Maybe, where we are at with the study of ki now is kind of like where we were with the 'ether' of the 19th century?

-And my point is that there are not have been any experaments that are repeatable. That's why its has not been proved empiracly.

 

[RoninPimp]

Here are some sources for your reading pleasure...

http://www.somasp.org.br/referencias/1995.htm
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/hels/neugen4.html
http://www.emofree.com/Research/meridianexistence.htm

-Thanks, I will read those when I get a chance. I have heard of accupuncture studies providing evidence for some sort of phenomenon going on and others that show absolutely nothing. Hardly conclusive or empiracle. For it to science it has to be measurable and repeatable.

 

[Makalakumu]

-Thanks, I will read those when I get a chance. I have heard of accupuncture studies providing evidence for some sort of phenomenon going on and others that show absolutely nothing. Hardly conclusive or empiracle. For it to science it has to be measurable and repeatable.

As far as bioelectricity goes, THAT has been pretty soundly supported. Other things that "chi" is supposed to be have not and remain inconclusive. Further, it can be shown that accupuncture can manipulate these currents, but the actual affects on the body that this causes isn't fully understood. For more reading on this, try these searches...

Bioelectricity and Accupuncture
Zhang - Popp Hypothesis
Acupuncture and Science

More often then not, studies show that manipulating these electrical currents have effects on the body. Questions as to why remain.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Give up guys. Ronin won't believe you. If he can't feel it in the ring while cuddling a Gracie or Shamrock Wannabe, it aint real to him. He's only here to screw with you anyway.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually to the Chinese Medical Doctors throughout China it is rather scientific. And in China both western and eastern medicine work very well together.

But thats ok when Western medicine got to China they thought pretty much the same thing about that that was previously stated about Chinese medicine here.

And Edmond once again :asian:

 

[shesulsa]

For it to science it has to be measurable and repeatable.

That sentence is incomplete, so I'm not exactly sure what you were saying....

The rub: chi flow changes and the instrumentation we have now cannot measure chi accurately to say the least.

As a parallel, how about the science of dreams? We can't be sure of why they happen nor where they come from. We don't even know why we need sleep, but we accept that we must need sleep because of the ramifications which occur when we don't get sleep. We can measure eye patterning and brain patterning and other biological functions during sleep which suggest, based upon behavior and performance, whether or not we are getting adequate rest.

However ... we do dream. Dreams are not measurable nor intentionally repeatable. Do we doubt that they exist? Do people who have never remembered a dream in their lives never actually dream? or do they forget them? Moreover, does the fact that some people have never experienced (according to their conscious memory) a dream indicate that dreams do not, in fact, exist?

Science is wonderful, though it is based on our very limited senses and instrumentaion and involves only the realm of our physical being. There are many other factors which weigh into observation - one's psyche, ego, intentions, experience, doubt patterns, belief patterns.

OH, and here's another thing that is very hard for many science fans to appreciate: sometimes science fails. All the people who received every form of chemotherapy there is for cancer yet died anyway evidence this. All the people who survive, even thrive despite the odds evidence this.

Science is not the be-all-end-all to the experience of living and the causation of being, healing and harming.

Not to strawman, but to put forth other, widely accepted non-scientifically proven elements of daily living.

Edmund, I am not out to convert others, merely to state my opinions. Hard-learned ones at that. If folks find themselves compelled to re-think their position, learn more, grow a little in tolerance, then my prayers have been answered. :asian:

 

[RoninPimp]

Give up guys. Ronin won't believe you. If he can't feel it in the ring while cuddling a Gracie or Shamrock Wannabe, it aint real to him. He's only here to screw with you anyway.

-Are you going to add anything to the discussion? Or are you content to snipe and insult? Sound like you are here to try and screw with people. Mods???...

 

[RoninPimp]

The rub: chi flow changes and the instrumentation we have now cannot measure chi accurately to say the least.

-The rub is that science begins when you can measure. That's why belief in Chi is NOT based on science.

Science is wonderful, though it is based on our very limited senses and instrumentaion and involves only the realm of our physical being. There are many other factors which weigh into observation - one's psyche, ego, intentions, experience, doubt patterns, belief patterns.

OH, and here's another thing that is very hard for many science fans to appreciate: sometimes science fails. All the people who received every form of chemotherapy there is for cancer yet died anyway evidence this. All the people who survive, even thrive despite the odds evidence this.

Science is not the be-all-end-all to the experience of living and the causation of being, healing and harming.

-Science is constantly adding and subtracting things. That's how it works. Science's inability to explain everything in the universe does NOT in any way help your argument for the existance of Chi.

 

[shesulsa]

-The rub is that science begins when you can measure. That's why belief in Chi is NOT based on science.

It's based on experience which is part of empirical evidence by the definition you linked to on Wish-apedia.

-Science is constantly adding and subtracting things. That's how it works. Science's inability to explain everything in the universe does NOT in any way help your argument for the existance of Chi.

Nor does it yours. Have a nice day!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-The rub is that science begins when you can measure. That's why belief in Chi is NOT based on science.


-Science is constantly adding and subtracting things. That's how it works. Science's inability to explain everything in the universe does NOT in any way help your argument for the existance of Chi.

Ok, so then by your definition, God doesn't exist either. She'll be very upset to hear that.

 

[RoninPimp]

Ok, so then by your definition, God doesn't exist either. She'll be very upset to hear that.

-God is not provable by science either. How does that help your argument for the existance of Chi?

 

[shesulsa]

Neither are dreams, but you keep avoiding that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-God is not provable by science either. How does that help your argument for the existance of Chi?

Very simple grasshopper. Billions of people believe in god, without his/her/it's existence being signed off on by some educated dude in a lab coat.

By that same token, as I and others have said, the Chinese, Japanese and others in that part of the world have their own science systems which do focus on it's existence, and to their satisfaction have proven it's existence, even if they can't put it in a box or a display somewhere.

My doctor cannot measure it or explain it, but she thinks it exists, and she does things using it that seem to be effective. I'm as skeptical as anyone, but when something works, it works. I don't need to see it's FDA ok.

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

Neither are dreams, but you keep avoiding that.

Dreams can be detected using certain equipment. However, we cannot see the dreams, only the effects of dreaming. So, therefore they must not exist. Can't prove it.

Then again, the one I had last night was a doozy. Can't describe it here...but it did involve multiple attackers. Well, sort of. :wavey:

 

[RoninPimp]

Neither are dreams, but you keep avoiding that.

-Like I said, Science's inability to explain everything in the universe does not help your argument for the existance of chi.

 

[RoninPimp]

Very simple grasshopper. Billions of people believe in god, without his/her/it's existence being signed off on by some educated dude in a lab coat.

By that same token, as I and others have said, the Chinese, Japanese and others in that part of the world have their own science systems which do focus on it's existence, and to their satisfaction have proven it's existence, even if they can't put it in a box or a display somewhere.

My doctor cannot measure it or explain it, but she thinks it exists, and she does things using it that seem to be effective. I'm as skeptical as anyone, but when something works, it works. I don't need to see it's FDA ok.

-I'm not telling you you shouldn't believe in chi, god , or the Easter bunny. I'm telling you that if you do, it's not based on science. The FACT remains that there is not a single person or culture anywhere on the planet that has empiracle evidence of chi.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Science also cannot create life, yet here we are.

 

[green meanie]

Dreams can be detected using certain equipment. However, we cannot see the dreams, only the effects of dreaming. So, therefore they must not exist. Can't prove it.

Then again, the one I had last night was a doozy. Can't describe it here...but it did involve multiple attackers. Well, sort of. :wavey:

:rofl:

 

[RoninPimp]

Science also cannot create life, yet here we are.

-Like I said, Science's inability to explain everything in the universe does not help your argument for the existance of chi.